Combatives 1
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Subject: Combatives 1
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 06:38 AM
For the last 41 years of my life, I have been studying various martial art forms. You name the style, and odds are I've spent at least six months getting the feel of it. Now I know many martial arts instructors would have you believe that six months is not enough time to learn the basics, let alone understand the "mysteries" of a given system. To them I say, horse hockey!
The human body will only move in a given number of ways. The laws of physics are the same whether I'm in China, Korea, Japan, the United States! Every human has the same number of limbs, organs, and nerve centers (unless they have been injured). Once you have removed the cultural factors from the various systems (more on that later), you will find the basic movements are almost the same. It is important to understand this because of the radical nature of my next statement. After 41 years of study, I have come to the conclusion that THE MARTIAL ARTS DON'T WORK!
Now before we get a large pole and gather up dry kindling for me, let's agree on a definition. The vast majority of people who come into a "martial arts" school or program, come only for one reason: "protection". Either for themselves or their loved ones, but protection is the goal. Not medals, not diet and exercise, not philosophy, but the skills necessary to defend themselves from dangerous attack. I say again, if the goal is protection of yourself or a loved one, then THE MARTIAL ARTS DON'T WORK!
First, the Martial Arts were NEVER used in war! Can you tell me the battle where the karate army charged the hill defended by the Aikido army, and the results of same? Of course not.
Second, ALL of the stories you hear about "Martial Art" masters are simply untrue. Let me give the best example I can think of. EVERY master of Okinawan karate, and many other karate styles as well, tells us the tale of Okinawan peasants developing karate, because they had no weapons. "Legends" abound of great masters who could punch through Samurai armor! Well, if the unarmed karate skills of these people worked so well for them, WHY DIDN'T THEY OVERTHROW THE JAPANESE WHO WERE OPPRESSING THEIR PEOPLE? "Tall tales" are fun to read. However, we don't believe Davy Crockett killed a bear when he was three (to give one example), so we shouldn't believe these myths either. The entire concept of "One Blow-One Kill" comes from training with the sword. I agree a well made sword, in the hands of a trained Samurai, will kill with one stroke. But when Japan outlawed possession of swords, the Samurai bought into the "tall tales" of Okinawa, due to the incredible breaking skills the Okinawan Karate masters had. Unfortunately, boards and bricks don't hit back and a hand is not a sword, no matter how much we wish it were.
"Martial Artists" by their very nature, want you to buy into "tall tales" and "mystic mindsets". When the average American tries these things, it's not going to work for them. The recent Ultimate Fighting Championships have given "Martial Artists" fits because of the results. So lets get this point made and move on; THE IDEA OF STANDING "TOE TO TOE" AND "FIGHTING IT OUT" WITH AN ASSAILANT IS FOOLISH, STUPID AND WILL GET YOU KILLED! (more)
Subject: RE: Combatives 1
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 06:40 AM
Current attempts to correct the problems aren't much better. Programs where women get together with other women, to beat the hell out of a man in a padded rubber suit WILL teach the aggressiveness necessary to survive a violent encounter. HOWEVER, they will still suffer from the "martial art" concept that you can "slug it out" with someone. Or your attackers will stand there and let you beat them until they are disabled!
I remember attending a seminar taught by a famous martial artist. Her entire concept was to just keep hitting someone until they fell down. When I asked, "What do you do think your opponent is doing while you're hitting him?", I was told, he'll be too busy ducking and avoiding to attack you. Nonsense! As long as I can THINK about hitting you, I WILL hit you! Now we're "slugging it out" again.
If a program tells you that with enough "boot camp" exercise, "aerobic boxing", bag work, or "makiwara" training, you will have the skills necessary to "slug it out" with someone, imagine the following:
"Ladies and Gentleman, this is the main event. In this corner, weighing 140 pounds, with one year of karate training, able to break 3 boards with a single blow, and able to do over an hour of calisthenics, the challenger!...and in this corner, weighing 240 lbs, just back from a 3 year tour of the state prison farm, with a record of 6 violent assaults, 3 rapes, 2 armed robberies, and an as of yet unproved murder...the champion!"
Who are you betting on to win the fight? There has to be a better plan, and there is! Simply put, we must never have a "toe to toe" conflict with anyone.
Martial arts training concentrates on one small aspect of self defense, that is physical technique, or "how to do it". But even here so much of the martial arts technique has no application at all to real fighting and it simply confuses the student by making actual fighting seem complex and technical, hence he or she falls prey to to the ideology that "technique" or style is the answer. In doing so they are prevented from framing the right "question" and seeing the real problem.
But self defense is simply about surviving , not technique, and self defense study must include an understanding of the criminal assailants mind and modus operandi because by knowing his ways, most attacks can be avoided. Most important of all self defense training must show the student that he is placed in an "alternate mind set and consciousness" (Flight or Fight) when faced with direct stand up aggression. In short most people "choke" or "freeze" when confronted with their first real attack, hence even if they are accomplished martial arts people they can many times have no access to these skills in the adrenal state and are beaten decisively, easily and very quickly by the street thug. (cont)
Subject: RE: Combatives
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 06:41 AM
These are two halves of the same whole, knowing your enemies ways and knowing yourself. Until the student experiences choking, "freezing up" under the threat or actual attack, he does not realize it can happen to him (he thus does not "know himself"). But once he experiences this he also realizes why the aggressor counts on the "freeze up" reaction since he also has been educated to the criminal assailant's victim selection modus operandi (Interview).
The real assailant for the most part is searching for a victim, not a fight and frankly martial arts training as we see it today in so many "dojos' is little more than "victim preparation" because it gives the student such a very distorted picture of what a real fight is all about and what his enemy is all about and his ways of doing business. Everyone needs to have this knowledge and some self defense ability in proportion to their potential for actualizing same. I believe this because after all, if their were no "easy victims" there would be far fewer criminal assailants.
Put it this way, go to any Zoo. We are not as strong as the elephant, as fast as the tiger, or as poisonous as the snake. Yet who is behind the bars? It is because of our MIND, and our TOOLS, that we can defeat the beasts of the world, and that includes the two legged types!
Early in 1993, a popular mld-afternoon talk show featured several people who had been assaulted on the streets. Their stories were all too familiar. One of them exclaimed that even though she had been involved in preparing women for such an assault, she was still powerless to prevent it! The show featured a criminologist and a security expert. They debated the merits of funding Head Start and putting in more security cameras in shopping malls respectively.
In the latter half of the program a self defense instructor was introduced. He proceeded to demonstrate various physical techniques that can be used by children to ward off the attack of a full grown man. The demonstrations worked well of course. After all, the children knew exactly when and how the assailant would strike; something you don't normally find in the real world. Not once in the entire program was the use of modern personal protection devices, such as defense sprays even mentioned. And that's a pity, because anyone who purchases and learns how to use these devices stands a much better chance of stopping an assault and escaping to summon help.
Despite a natural, trusting tendency to go about our daily lives in ignorant bliss, more and more people, especially women, are beginning to realize they must protect themselves. There is a growing realization that we all must assume the responsibly for our own safety. Let's look at some options.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 06:54 AM
In reality; there are only two types of "martial arts" that were created for war. The medhods handed down by Fairbairn to people like Applegate, Styers, etc. AND what the Russians did with Sambo. I leave it to Scott to relate that story to you; here we will focus on the one man who did indeed create the most effective system EVER for dealing with a life and death struggle; and of course his methods; W. E. Fairbairn.
"Dangerous Dan" had several axioms that students had to learn. To begin we learn the two most important ones.
"It is not "self-defense", nor should it be. It is "self-offense" in that the moment you see the danger you will respond with violent deadly force until that danger has passed."
and
"Unarmed combat is what we enter into when we have been foolish enough not to have a weapon; careless enough to lose our weapon, or unlucky enough to have broken our weapon. But in any case our first choice will be to use deadly weapons to finsh off our opponent. Lacking those weapons; then our hands and feet will have to do."
Clearly our goal is to avoid conflict whenever possible. If we cannot avoid our goal becomes to make ourselves a "tough target" and evade the situation. But if avoid and evade fail; then we will make every effort to destroy our attacker by doing as much dammage to him as quickly as we can then leaving the area as quickly as we can.
This is the only goal to combatives. We will begin to learn how to achieve that goal now...
"Kick him in the balls" W.E. Fairbairn
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 07:56 AM
A great start to what I'm sure will be a great series.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 07:58 AM
Mark, a hearty hurrah! I couldn't agree more. This is precisely what I expound is promoting personal SYSTEM over "style."
I'll attempt to keep this short, but upon your request it is important to recount that the Russian training methodology does NOT focus upon "technique." (and in this definition of "technique" I am NOT referring to "proper mechanics." I am referring to "specific, rote, predetermined, pre-orchestrated reaction to a specific threat.")
In Russia, our training evolved from the need to develop the mature fighting attributes necessary for "Survival under extreme conditions" (as I have said ad nauseum). I know, I know... everyone wants to learn a fancy technique, and many people are frustrated by the apparent "elusiveness" of my answers, but that is because... dependency upon technique, is fixation on failure - which in the case of personal and family safety equates to death.
Sambo has been on the downward spin since the fall of the Soviet Union. "And why is that," you may ask. Because of the mass awareness and interest in Sambo is DEFINING Sambo as a collection of techniques. The masses of novice and mediocre awareness of ACTUAL Russian training have defined Sambo - people who have never been to Russia and just "assumed" that Sambo must be like all other "styles" - people that read a book or watched a "wrestling match" and talked to an immigrant and assumed they "knew" what Sambo was in Russia (often using the excuse that they are accomplished in other "styles." LOL)
In recent years, in Russia, the true practitioners have made strong strides to rejuvenate the PROPER understanding of Russian training methodologies, which deal PRIMARILY with the elimination of "fear-reactivity" and the solicitation of "fear-reactivity" in the enemy. This is why the "Russian-Style Hand to Hand Combat and Survival Under Extreme Conditions" (called R.O.S.S. Training System) was created. This is what I mean when I say PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGICAL TRAINING. This is what I mean why I say PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENT. This is what I mean when I say ATTRIBUTE DEVELOPMENT. This crisis survival is the crux and cornerstone of the Russian training.
Because the mass pollution of the "notion" of Sambo. Everyone's a Sambo master nowadays... (or even better, everyone is a "Sambo blackbelt with a library of Sambo videos." What an apostasy to the original intention!
The innovation of Sambo was NOT technical content. The innovation was what was echoed in all of the turn of the century to WWII military combatives.
In Russia I train with and train Special Forces (Spetsnaz). They are not huge fang-weilding dreadnoughts of destruction. The average Op is only 5'5" 140lbs. soaking wet. (The videos that everyone love to watch of the "Spetsnaz Super Soldiers" drop kicking each other with burly muscles in Russia are called "Hollywood Troops" DESIGNED to be "accidentally" caught on film.) Our training has everything to do with the instillation of fear-reactivity in the opponent and the removal of fear-reactivity in ourselves.
The uniqueness of the Russian training methodology is its approach... "Sambo Special flavor" aka "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz" aka "Russian-Style (Hand to hand Combat)" now known as R.O.S.S. Training System is the development of combat "Survival under extreme situations."
Leave it to Mark to say in one post succinctly, what I have been saying in the SAMBO Q&A for months with bag-o-windedness.
Good show, my friend.
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
AmerROSS.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Fan
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 08:13 AM
This falls in nicely with alot of what I believe. Ive been a prison guard in 2 states, and agree with quite a bit of stuff here. But I would like to add a couple things. Mainstream self defense is totally ignorant of this, and even hardcore schools do not spend a great deal of time with "force continuum" issues. The FC is the only good item that comes out of DT programs. The do or die mugger/murderer scenario is real, but low percentage compared to the chance of having to restrain a drunken friend from getting behind the wheel. This is a whole different situation legally, ethically, and morally.
I greatly approve of Mr. Tripp's taking up this issue. Ive noticed high level grapplers/fighters at times speak with an air of invincibility when talking about street situations. As a CO, the main reason I grapple is to feel the resistance of a live person, and because Ive never met anybody who could use standing joint locks who wasnt a WIZARD at ground locks. There are certain things about control that you learn grappling that you dont get anywhere else -- even though they serve as more of a drill than as application. Sorry if this was too long.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 09:29 AM
Out of interest, SSonnon, could the sport side of Sombo be considered as a collection of techniques? That's usually the way sport Judo is seen.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: beau
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 10:01 AM
Excellent posts, I was missing MTripp's history stuff, so this hit the spot.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Tap This
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 10:34 AM
Excellent!
Jason
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 10:42 AM
Got to love this forum!!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: beau
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 11:09 AM
You always see people on the forum talking about "what works" in a fight, and then going on about NHB etc. I think training in a combat sport is one of the best things you can do, not necessarily because of the applied techniques you learn, but because it gets you used to physical contact. I honestly think that people who consider themselves bad asses simply because they train for NHB or in BJJ etc are in for a rude awakening if they ever get in a serious street confrontation where people are seriously intent on hurting them. (not that I'm a street combatives expert, just that I try to be honest with myself about how much (or how little, I guess) what training I do will help me if someone tries to stab me on the subway, or a group jumps me in the street. MTripp, I think you've made an important post which everyone on the forum should read.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 12:34 PM
AS,
If you are speaking of American SOMBO, then you'll have to contact their organization, for when I resigned as president of their organization and left for Russia, I have had no further contact with them.
If you are speaking of Russian Sambo... any who view Sambo as a collection of "techniques" do not understand Sambo, regardless of whether it is Sport-flavor, Combat-flavor, or Special-flavor. Sambo was intended to be a whole system.
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
AmerROSS.com
SAMBO.net
Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 12:42 PM
AS, furthermore, and I'll allow Mark to expound upon Judo's actual pedagogical intent, since that is not my expertise, one of the innovations that was imported from J. Kano (via Sambo contributor V. Oshchepkov) was the emphasis on open exploration (randori & shiai, I believe are the terms in Japanese, though my spelling or word choice may be wrong). Although a myriad of grappling styles were prevalent throughout Russia, it was Oshchepkov's experience with Judo, and Kano's training methodologies that inspired Oshchepkov to emphasize this aspect as CRITICAL to cultivating and maintaining the mature fighting prowess in men and women. It was the EXPLORATION, not 'information' that was critical... a safe, enduring environment to explore attribute development. This was the contribution of Sambo sport-flavor. Combat-flavor and Special-flavor has EQUAL, INTEGRAL importance.
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
AmerROSS.com
SAMBO.net
Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 01:17 PM
beau
"I think training in a combat sport is one of the best things you can do, not necessarily because of the applied techniques you learn, but because it gets you used to physical contact."
Beautifully stated... and that is the purpose of sport-flavor training. It is when this is inflated beyond the realm of the mat, that people place themselves in harm's way.
Training must be a TOTAL System, not merely a fragment.
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon
AmerROSS.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 01:22 PM
This is quite true. It is not about "technique" but rather "fitting" your body to the situation.
Bruce Lee said it kinda like this...
"What stance does Jorden take when he shoots the air ball?" (I have updated the person)
"In reality none; as his body knows exactly what the conditions are to make that shot; once that is percieved then the shot is made."
Jeff Cooper in several of his shooting books makes the same points about the real "one shot one kill".
ONLY when we get concerned about ranks, tests, belts, etc does "material" become important.
I can show you the mechanics of magic tricks all night long; heck there have even been TV shows about it; BUT ASK YOURSELF THIS!!!!
Even with the knowledge of the working, COULD YOU DO IT???
In that question, and your pondering on it, is the greatest personal truth to your training you will ever find!!!!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: SSonnon
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 01:32 PM
Amen!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Tony Bananas
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 02:14 PM
awesome!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: poobear
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 02:58 PM
This is exactly what I've been learning for the last 6 months or so...
Kudos!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: croft
Date: 21-Apr-00 | 05:30 PM
Someone should save this thread.
=^..^=
Subject: RE: INFO
From: cudgel
Date: 22-Apr-00 | 10:43 AM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 22-Apr-00 | 05:45 PM
ttt
thanks Coach, I'm going to love this series
Subject: RE: INFO
From: RUSHVAN
Date: 22-Apr-00 | 05:57 PM
I agree with MTripp, I have maintained that the surest way to learn to fight is to fight. And in a controlled setting the closest by far is boxing, then wrestling and then judo. There has never been an instance when I have started traing someone in boxing who has never sparred before (particularly martial artists) that the first time they get hit, even a stiff jab they simply do no know what to do. When hit with a combination they almost invariably bend over, cover up and turn their back. Not good.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bad Brad
Date: 23-Apr-00 | 12:08 AM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: budokuden
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 08:47 AM
Well done! Logical analysis and good points about MA theory and the reality of the street.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Yeah
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 12:30 PM
Any one want to buy a used Black belt?? Got two for a great price.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 01:38 PM
Nothing wrong with those black belts; but you need to focus on what Kano was trying to tell us.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 02:00 PM
Thanks for the answers, SSonnon.
MTripp, will you be discussing restraining techniques at any stage? Many times, I am trying to restrain a drunken friend, not fight for my life. It is here that I find Judo really comes into its own.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: tmorenz
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 02:40 PM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 05:46 PM
Yes; but to my way of thinking Small Circle Jujitsu is the very best at that kind of situation.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: submission studen
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:39 PM
Excellent post Mark. I've always thought that the great psychiatrists and psychologists of the age have never delved into the psyche of human defense. Mans instincted is to survive. His inate ability to defend himself against other men and animals. I've always thought that you can teach poeple martial arts and techniques to defend themselves but you can't teach them to "fight".
Subject: RE: INFO
From: submission studen
Date: 24-Apr-00 | 06:45 PM
I think self defense starts first and foremost with alertness and avoidense. Knowing whats going on around you and taking evasive actions before things turn bad is the best defense. If you've ever been in a situation were everthing you say and do from second to second dictates the mood and volitility of your environment, were saying the wrong thing, or even having the wrong tone in your voice could cost you your life, you know what I mean. I wish I could elaborate further, but time does not permit it at this time. Your on the right track, brother.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 25-Apr-00 | 07:37 PM
For other Mark Tripp entries, please check out:
NOTE: Posted as-of Dec 28, 2001 on Nov 22, 2013 to mirror my old archives - http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/mtcombat1.html. Pageviews at the time of porting from old site to here was 12,911.
