Mark Tripp's Combatives 7
You are in the Judo Q&A Forum:Subject: Combatives 7
From: MTripp
Date: 08-May-00 | 07:35 AM
OK; technique selection. First; our mantra if you will:
WILL THIS TECHNIQUE WORK AGAINST A BIGGER, STRONGER OPPONENT WHO IS ATTEMPTING TO STOP IT BY ANY MEANS, FAIR OR FOUL?
That must be asked EVERY time we choose a technique.
For beginning level (Ikkyu in Judo; Blue Belt in BJJ/GJJ) YOU are going to have to select 10 techniques... TOPS. Some are a must others are of personal taste ot your body type.
You are going to need:
2 arm strikes
2 leg strikes
2 takedowns
2 "clinches"
2 "submission/restraining" holds
I used to use the words "finishing hold" as that was clearer; but the words could haunt you in court. So I leave it to you to understand that message.
One of the takedowns HAS to be a shoot, either single or double leg. One of the submissions HAS to be the CVR or Carotid Vascular restraint. One of the clinches has to be the Russian Mount (we don't pin people on the street). One of the leg strikes is kicking from the ground (butt scoot) and all that that entails. One of the arm strikes has to be the chin jab/tiger claw.
Now; when used in combination (Ketsugo) you would be stunned to see how many ways 10 techniques work out. Dr. Mance says you can mix 10 techniques into about 10,000 different combinations. At least I think he said that; memory getting bad. I know it was huge!
Lets stay with that; how long would it take you to master 10,000 techniques? Bet it would take longer than learning 10 REAL well!
Now these skills must be mastered! Drilled over and over again as if your life counted on them, and it does.
How hard would you train if you HAD to fight Tank Abbott in 6 weeks? Ever thought that you might have to fight someone like him, with NO warning?
Now, a serious recommendation. Just about everything you need to use to make this selection can be found in "The fighters notebook". Chris was kind enough to buy me one for my birthday and it is simply one of the best works of it's kind I have ever read. BUY IT TODAY!
Now, lets see YOUR list! Your ten core techniques for true "real world" fighting. Lets talk about them.
Then we will show you how to train with them!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: ILVQLOS
Date: 08-May-00 | 08:32 AM
Arm strikes:(1) Uppercut w/fist or w/palm heel. If done w/palm heel add in fingers into eyes.(2)Axe-hand into trachea or any part of neck.
Leg strikes:(1) Foot stomp on top of his foot.(2)Front kick into his shin or roundhouse to side of knee.
Takedowns:(1)Osoto-gari w/crook of elbow clothesline or w/fingers into eyes face push.(2)Double leg takedown w/intention to lift and slam back o/his head into floor
Clinches:(1)Use head butt into face.(2)Hold back of neck and pull head down as smash knee into face/head, or knee into balls.
Submissions:(1)Armpit armlock(waki-gatame) (2)Rear naked choke(mataleao,lionkiller)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 08-May-00 | 09:44 AM
Arm strikes: straight punches, elbow strikes to the face.
Leg strikes: knee to the groin, front kick to the knee (possibly from butt scoot).
Takedowns: double leg takedown, tai otoshi.
Subs: rear naked choke, cross armlock.
Not sure what is meant by clinches. Pin-wise, I'd go for a high mount or a rear mount. When I clinch, I reach both arms underneath my opponent's armpits and grab my own wrist. From here, I headbutt and use knees to the groin whilst looking for a ko soto gake throw.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 08-May-00 | 10:40 AM
ILVQLOS!!!!!!!!!
A freaking plus!!!!!!!
Excellent.
Remember what we do has to "monitor" both our opponent and our area. We have to see what he is doing and what others are doing!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: ILVQLOS
Date: 08-May-00 | 11:19 AM
Thanks Coach. Courtesy of the 2nd Ranger Battalion, Rex Applegate & co., Tripp/Saylor curriculum, Stadion's Basic Instincts of Self defense, Jacques' Street Sambo and assorted street battles that served as "live" theory-testing sessions.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 08-May-00 | 02:57 PM
"WILL THIS TECHNIQUE WORK AGAINST A BIGGER, STRONGER OPPONENT..."
If you're very big and strong, surely you should be thinking about what to do against weaker but more highly skilled fighters, for example, using the ground and pound strategy.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 08-May-00 | 04:56 PM
ILVQLOS, didn't he break the legkick selection criteria? (I mean no butt scout kick?)
also, what exactly is meant by a clinch? (initially I pictured the 'thai' clinch, but now I picture a mount on the ground...)
thanks (I'll pick once I understand :O)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 08-May-00 | 05:21 PM
No because this isn't a contest. Unless the person has a weapon; Don Knots isn't going to assault Tank Abbott.
However, Tank would go after Don...
Clinch as to tie him up (one standing one on the ground) to where you are in control and can monitor.
Yes, just noticed he left out stuff from the butt scoot..
Oh... speaking of Tank; look for post!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sharkelephant
Date: 08-May-00 | 05:43 PM
why no pinning in the street? Is it because he may have freinds around? I wd think pinning would allow your arms freedom to strike or submit...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: submission studen
Date: 08-May-00 | 06:55 PM
I don't think a "hold down" or "Pin" is in line with MTripp's basic concept of combatives. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the main objective is to hurt some one so you can get away from them. Get them off of you so that you can get to safety. To hold them down would be inviting them to fight more.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 08-May-00 | 07:32 PM
Yes on all counts.
Also most pins do not let you see what he is doing with his hands...
BAD move if he has a hidden weapon.
Or friends rushing to his aid...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 08-May-00 | 07:55 PM
cool, what are my clinch options then?
Armstrikes: jab/cross to nose and elbow to crown of head
Legstrikes: kick from butt scout, and push kick
Takedowns: tai otoshi, and single leg
subs: rear naked and heel hook (or maybe an ankle attack)
clinches: Russian Mount and something else :O) (don't know many clinches/any clinches)...stomping/standing on face of downed opponent?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 08-May-00 | 08:13 PM
Might want to rethink your throw; turning your back on an armed opponent is a no-no.
However if you do it from an outside grip you have no problem.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 08-May-00 | 11:44 PM
I was thinking...wouldn't ko-ouchi/o-ouchi be easier than a single/double?...
I would probably use that and the single then...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sem572
Date: 09-May-00 | 12:05 AM
2 arm strikes - deep ridge hand (actually forearm) to groin, tiger claw
2 leg strikes - kick from ground, front stomp to knee
2 takedowns - Double leg, ko-uchi gari (or o-soto or ouchi gari, oops, I am cheating!)
2 "clinches" - Russian Mount, "Total" hold down w/knee on stomach
2 "submission/restraining" holds - CVR choke, form of ikkyjo (sp?)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 09-May-00 | 06:31 AM
The "shoot" will have to be learned for reasons that will be clear later; the Ko/O uchi would not work for the situation I have in mind...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: submission studen
Date: 09-May-00 | 08:55 AM
2 arm strikes= (to get some one away) Jabs and straight punches, (to knock someone out or beat them down) Hooks and upper cuts. (Remeber to fight lateraly and use angles)
2 leg strikes= (to get them away) straight kicks in the body, to create space. Round kicks to the legs,(to sweep or knock them off balance.
2 clinches= Wrestlers "head and an arm", or and "Over and under"
2 take downs= (from the clinch) hip toss, or tai otoshi, (from the shot) inside single (headbutt to the groin), "shuck and drag"
2 submissions= there are so many to choose from, I think that education and situation have to be factored into this one. Seeing as most subs would be used as breaks in this mind set. They would be snapped on and followed through with until damage was done, with out regard to fair play.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 09-May-00 | 10:12 AM
2 arm strikes: Palm heel/Tiger claw(eyes..hehehe ask my bro =),throat,5on2..etc)
2 leg strikes:(sorry got 3) knees/stomping kicks/joint kicks
2 takedowns:(O-soto-gari/russian hip throw to rear)
2 "clinches" : Russain mount/Outside 2 on 1
2 "submission/restraining" holds :CVR/ hmmm tough one....I'd rather have a basic knowledge of joint locking principles rather than any one lock/hold. But If i had to choose..i'd use ude-gatame/garami from the russian mount.
Chris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Yeah
Date: 09-May-00 | 01:54 PM
Eye strikes are great, but there has been some guys like Matt Thorton who believe eye Bounks, I think thats what he call them, wont win a fight for you. I have always been taught different and have used them in fights. I think they work great.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: RatBastahd
Date: 09-May-00 | 06:35 PM
MTripp, Its funny that you used the word Ketsugo. That is what the art I am studying is caled. It is a mix of Ju-Jitsu, Judo, Akido, and Karate. I havent been studying it all that long so my list will be fairly rudimentary. 2 arm strikes: straight arm jab and upper cut/elbow to face. I would also add any strikes to the kidneys.
2 leg strikes: front kick to the groin and thrusting front kick to the knees.
2 takedowns: I have always liked the hip toss and single leg take downs. I worked as a bouncer for a while and would hip toss people to the ground upon occasion. learned it in Basic.
2 "clinches": Not really sure about clinches. but instead I have a couple of akido moves I like. Reverse wrist lock and finger locks to get out of hand chokes or shirt/gi grabs.
2 "submission/restraining" holds: we call it "Japanese Sleeper" everyone else calls it the Rear Nekkid.
Learned that from rasslin' when I was a young un'. And the standing arm bar, I think thats what it is called. Opponent is on the ground and you have their wrist secured with your knee on the back of the elbow.
We were talking about this same thing last night at class. The sensei was going over throws and he was doing hip tosses out of every postition. When I mentioned that, he said "You know, I can do alot of throws, but the hip toss is my favorite so I practice it out of every scenario." It got me thinking about learning ten or twelve moves and getting good at it and then just working on them. They have to be practical of course. I see these younger adults who have this idea about jumping spinning kicks and seeing how high they can hit. well, that's kool in the dojo, but what about when Joe scumbag wants yourt lunch money? I am in Martial Arts for two reasons. One is for my son who wanted to get involved in something and I go to help him along. The other is because I work in a prison and want a practical defensive art. Anyways, dave RatBastahd
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 09-May-00 | 06:44 PM
just out of question...why the kicks?...some wrestlers/boxers do alright with that combination without throwing kicks (and you are more prone to get taken down with a leg in the air)...just curious, personally I like kicks...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 09-May-00 | 09:55 PM
Keep a person away from you or to set up other attacks
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Tap This
Date: 09-May-00 | 10:16 PM
Well, my turn.
2 Arm strikes: Chain Palms( like the straight blast but with palms), tiger claw to anywhere
2 Leg strikes: kicking from the ground and the front stomp
2 takedowns: Single leg and a duck under
2 clinches: Russian mount and back control, with my knee in his back.
2 submissions: CVR and a "Devil's Daughter", which is where you take your thumb and squeeze the bridge of the nose from behind. If you slip, you extend your thumb into their eye
Now, is the Russian Mount like the Total hold down in the FN?
Jason
Subject: RE: INFO
From: lkfmdc
Date: 09-May-00 | 11:26 PM
Let's see if someone as dumb as I can figure this out? :)
strikes? I'd choose the chin jab and 45 degree hammer fist.
kicks? FORCED by LORD TRIPP to take the butt scoot stomp :) So I'll also choose a side kick to the knee.
Takedowns; double leg and O-Soto Gari
Clinches: Russian mount on ground, doulbe over hook standing (tie up vs striking)
Submissions: Rear naked choke and doulbe wrist lock (arm down Kimura)
did I win? :)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 10-May-00 | 04:30 AM
No. The results are in and it turns out I did. That's right, I was suprised as you are and demanded an immediate recount. Nevertheless, the results came out the same.
( :
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 10-May-00 | 10:17 AM
doulbe wrist lock, lkfmdc, isn't that the lock that MFurey makes fun of? (opersonally, it works for me...)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 10-May-00 | 10:34 AM
"Now, is the Russian Mount like the Total hold down in the FN?"
Yes, but with a few varitatoins on the arms, to tie both them out, or to break the arm and still survey the scene.
Chris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 10-May-00 | 10:36 AM
"No. The results are in and it turns out I did. That's right, I was suprised as you are and demanded an immediate recount. Nevertheless, the results came out the same."
I know your just goofing, but There are a few combative "no,no" that you made in your list, I'm sure Coach will address all our "No,No's".
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 10-May-00 | 11:01 AM
I guess kata-guruma is out...sigh, it would look so cool on the street...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 10-May-00 | 01:48 PM
Let me guess:
I'm going to be told that punching with the knuckles can break them tai otoshi exposes my back and is therefore too risky in a real fight, the cross armlock invloves ending up on my back, which is dangerous if my opponent has buddies nearby. The standard mount doesn't give enough visibility to observe if my opponent is reaching for a weapon, or if his friends are coming to help, etc.
Sometimes, you have to accept certain compromises in life. Here, the compromise is that, in order to defeat the hypothetical Tank Abbott, I'm going to have to use some of the most powerful tools in my repertoire. If I reduce their effectiveness by modifying them to take into account multiple assailants, weapons etc, I'll may lose a fight to a single, unarmed man and be beaten to a pulp.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 10-May-00 | 04:32 PM
Gee... here is a thought; do any damn thing you like. No skin off my nose.
If you don't like the advice in here don't listen to it and don't read it.
Either eat a bran muffin or ask your Doctor to adjust the dosage of your meds...
Lighten up....
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 10-May-00 | 04:47 PM
I didn't say I didn't like the advice given here. Quite the opposite, as I have said before. I just didn't want to give the impression that I hadn't given thought to those areas which may earn me criticism from certain quarters.
Re-reading my earlier post, perhaps it came out a little more aggressively than I had intended. Won't happen again.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 10-May-00 | 06:33 PM
Here is the problem I think you are missing.
You probably do not carry a gun...
If you break your right hand; then have to draw a gun; you have a major problem.
In point of fact I have problems with cops/Co's all the time because I force them to use their baton/flashlight LEFT handed (in most cases).
This is because I want NOTHING in the way of draw and shoot.
It sometimes gets confusing for people to keep in mind that there is more than one kind of combatives and the transition from unarmed to armed is very important.
IF you have a good blast with a fist that works for you; USE IT. I do not, but have other methods that work as well for me.
Take care...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 10-May-00 | 06:52 PM
Brits, like AS generally don't factor in guns...us Canucks don't either (for better of for worse)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 11-May-00 | 04:27 AM
It's true that I'm not factoring in carrying a gun, knife etc. It's not legal in the UK to carry in public ANY weapon (under normal circumstances).
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 11-May-00 | 05:38 AM
Even so; there are people who do (police/military) and they study combatives too...
BUT, think about this...
You are running away to your car and now you want to get your keys out to get in and drive away...
But your right hand is broken.....
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 11-May-00 | 07:30 AM
I do take potential knuckle damage seriously, but I feel I have conditioned them sufficiently now (through makiwara) to withstand being used for several strikes. Admittedly, this would not be the case for everyone.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 11-May-00 | 08:22 AM
I'm sure you feel that way; I did mine that way too (at 46 I REALLY wish I hadn't).
But I saw a lot of guys in the Early UFC's who did it too and they broke their hands.
Still; we are not the norm. The average person seeking combative training is not going to condition their hands in that manner; and for medical and legal reasons I URGE people not to.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: samboboy
Date: 11-May-00 | 09:44 AM
Ok I will weigh in here
2 arm strikes: Palm strike and elbow. the palm can be thrown from a variety of angles and can be everything from a strike to a pushing striking blow. The elbow is simple to learn and non telegraphing
2 leg strikes: Front push kick, andthai style shin kick.
2 takedowns: Here is where I get controversial, Tani-otoshi and a thai throw where you hold low on the chest in a bear hug and walk the opponent back while you pull him towards you, Ihave used it live and it has worked well.
2 clinches: Easy, duckunder and arm drag.
2 restraints: Kinda a toss up, rear naked or hadake jime and knee on chest which can easily be turned into a Russian mount.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 11-May-00 | 10:23 AM
Storm, Wasn't trying to say those things weren't good, just want everyone to go home safe (the point of combatives).
Now don't take this the wrong way(bad set up I know).But IMHO there may be a slight flaw in your thinking (for combatives) the "Win or loose a fight" mentality (Or possibly just my interptation of what you typed). Win or Loose is not a option, Suviving is,then surving without breaking the laws, then survining without breaking the law and not getting injured in the process. I'm sure Coach will go into this further.
"The standard mount doesn't give enough visibility to observe if my opponent is reaching for a weapon, or if his friends are coming to help, etc."
Why do that to yourself and get booted in the head or better yet stabbed or shot...Work on thse things now so they get stronger.
"Sometimes, you have to accept certain compromises in life. Here, the compromise is that, in order to defeat the hypothetical Tank Abbott, I'm going to have to use some of the most powerful tools in my repertoire."
Right I agree, but make those combative techniqes your strongest so you won't have to compromise.
Just wanted to let you know, we not dogging you but we actuactlly care and want to help.
Chris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Judoka100
Date: 11-May-00 | 11:14 AM
Just some of my ideas:
Kicks - "Thai" round kick to thigh/knee + front kick to knee/stomach.
Arm Strikes - uppercut and elbow strike for close range, knock out attempt.
Clinches - mount and back mount. Scarf hold OK to tire him out but the not best place to finish from.
Takedowns - double leg and "winding" (makkikomi) throws.
Throws - hip (or Harai goshi) throw or osoto gari:
Subs - naked/gi choke(for fast unconsciousness), juji-gatame (to snap the arm)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Absolute Storm
Date: 11-May-00 | 11:52 AM
Fair enough, Chzog. I understand what you're saying.
What about you, MTripp. Are you going to give us your own ideal set of techniques?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chzog
Date: 11-May-00 | 02:39 PM
"Fair enough, Chzog. I understand what you're saying."
LOL I'm glad you did, I re-read what I worte and was thourghly confused.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: MTripp
Date: 12-May-00 | 08:18 AM
The problem with giving mine is just that; they are mine.
They need to be yours....
For other Mark Tripp entries, please check out:
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 1
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 2 (Who was W.E. Fairbairn?)
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 3 (Level of Force)
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 4 (Goshinjutsu)
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 5 (Atemi-Waza)
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 6 (Balance)
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 8 (Understanding the Shoot and "Butt Scoot")
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 9 (Grip Strength)
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 10 (Teaching Self-defense)
- Mark Tripp - Combatives 11 (Women's Self-defense)
NOTE: Posted as-of Jun 21, 2000 on Nov 22, 2013 to mirror my old archives - http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/mtcombat7.html.
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