My Journey thread started by Roy Harris
Subject:From: Roy Harris
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 01:25 AM
Twenty years ago, I began my journey into the realm of martial arts. It all started in 1981 when I purchased a book entitled, "Bruce Lee's Fighting Methods: Basic Training." I read the book from cover to cover in one evening. Even though I could not perform the techniques I read about in that book, it gave me inspiration. Later, a friend of mine told me about a "Wing Chun" class that was being held in the back of a restaurant. I just had to see this class! besides, Bruce Lee trained in Wing Chun, so I had to go! On my first night of class, we practiced "Sil Lum Tao" the entire night (two hours worth). Sil Lum Tao means, "diminshed or small imagination of the mind." Sil Lum Tao is the first form taught in Wing Chun, and the foundation upon which they build their system. Because of the instructor's heavy emphasis on "forms", I grew weary of the pre-arranged movements. I kept asking the instructor, "when are we ever going to learn self-defense?" I was told that self-defense came from learning this form and developing a foundation to build off of. To this I argued, "Yeah, but I don't even know how to get out of a head lock or what to do if someone were to punch me square in the face!" I was informed to, "Keep practicing the form and self-defense would come due in time." Well, I couldn't wait any longer. I had already been training for a month and needed to feel like I could defend myself. And since I didn't feel that way, I became disinterested in Wing Chun. One year later, I moved to another city (St. Paul, MN) and something happened that changed the course of my life! I met Sifu Rick Faye of the Minnesota Kali Group. Continued........ Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 01:26 AM
One day, while walking to work, I saw a martial arts supply store. I had a bit of time on my hands so I walked in and started looking around. I saw the same Bruce Lee book I had purchased a year ago. However, I saw many more. Then, the store clerk came up to me and asked me a question that changed the course of my life. She asked, "Can I help you find something?" I said, "Yes, is there anyone in town who teaches Wing Chun?" (The reason I asked this simple question was this: WIng Chun was all I knew about martial arts back then. I could not tell you the difference between Jeet Kune Do and Taekwon Do. The only true martial art was Wing Chun! Does any of this sound familiar? Have any of you had the same experience? Don't lie now. Be honest!) Her answer to that simple question changed my life! This woman responded by saying, "No. However, the Minnesota Kali Group teaches a portion of Wing Chun in their curriculum." To this I responded, "Minnesota what group?" She said, "The Minnesota Kali Group teaches Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, Filipino Kali, Muay Thai kick boxing, Wing Chun and various other arts." Now she had me going! All I knew about was Wing Chun, and she said some other funny names............things I had never heard of before. So, I had to go and check it out. The very next day, I dropped by the Minnesota Kali Group and checked out a class. When I arrived, Sifu Rick Faye was sparring with his brother. I spoke with Sifu Rick about training with him. I told him that I was interested in learning Wing Chun. He said he taught a variety of other martial arts as well. Of course, I was only interested in WIng Chun because that's all I knew. As we continued talking, he walked over to a 150 lbs. thai bag and began beating it with a stick. I had never seen anyone move a stick so fast in all my life. Plus, the sound was almost deafening! I couldn't believe how fast he was moving that stick. I asked him what that was and he said, 'Filipino Kali." OK! Now he had my full attention! Wing Chun was out, Kali was in!) I could not see the benefit of practicing "Sil Lum Tao." However, I could definitely see the benefit of swinging a stick that fast at someone! (Any of you have similar expereinces?) A couple of days later, I had my first class in JKD. I was excited but nervous. I didn't know what to expect. The class began by first warming up with shadow boxing and then firing off three rounds of jump rope. Then , we jumped into some thai pads, some serious focus pad work and then finished with some Jun Fan trapping drills. I was paired up with this cute gal. I thought I would have a lot of fun working with her. However, I was in for a big shock. This woman.............well, I'll save it for part two. To be continued....... Roy Harris (In the next segment, I will talk about my beginning days in JKD. I will also discuss how I ended up in California and began training at the world famous Inosanto Academy, IMB and the Gracie Academy in Torrance. In future segments I will talk about my interesting experiences in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and other arts!)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 01:38 AM
You should write a book, like an autobiography.
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From: prince ofarmlocks
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 02:55 AM
Awsome Roy, thank you!
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From: crazycabbie
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 08:14 AM
Normally my attention span is limited, but with Roy's stories, I'm riveted.
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From: Peya
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 09:35 AM
LoL yes it does remind me of somethig .. When I first got into it all I knew about American Kickboxing and TKD and boxing .. I always wanted to join TKD or kickboxng but then found wat I'm in right now
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From: Matt-le-kat
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 10:52 AM
can't wait for the next installment!
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From: kcbjj
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 11:16 AM
I would buy that book, if Roy wrote it.
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From: sovann
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 02:08 PM
Nice! Yep, I got hooked on FMA first class I visited after several years of kenpo.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 06:58 PM
oops.....
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 06:58 PM
My Journey Part Two So here I am paired up with this cute gal. I am thinking to myself, "Boy, this training session is going to be great! I get to learn some great stuff, plus I get have a little eye candy on the side. Well, no sooner had we started and BAAM, this gal (or should I say "wonder woman") threw her first thai kick into the thai pad I was holding and moved me backwards about three feet. She kicked so hard I could feel the power of her kick through the thai pad. Suddenly, training HURT! Well, then we moved on to focus pads and this "wonder woman" practically ripped my arms out my socket with her punches. When we finished up with a few Jun Fan trapping drills, I thought "OK, now I can show her my strength." Well, her first pak sao (slapping hand) hit my forearm so hard I almost screamed! Each time she slapped my forearm I cringed in pain. Of course, I did not want to show any signs of pain so I sucked it up until class was over. (NOTE: my right forearm was black and blue after that first training session. Talk about a blow to my ego!) As we were wrapping things up, I asked her, "so, how long have you been training with Sifu Rick Faye?" To this she replied, "Oh, about two and a half years." That made me feel a little bit better. However, I still could not get over the fact that this 5'6", 130 lbs. wonder woman could kick harder and punch harder than me. Oh well, I got over it. I trained at the Minnesota Kali Group 'til around 1985. It was in early 1986 that I moved to California. Before I moved, I asked Sifu Rick where he thought I should continue my training and he suggested I give Sifu Inosanto and Guru Paul Vunak a try. Continued........ Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: cjones
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 10:40 PM
Roy, these stories are great. i can't wait to read more. You really should think about writing a book. Chad
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 06-Aug-01 | 11:03 PM
In February of 1986, I moved out to San Diego, California with $170 in my pocket. That's right, only $170 and no job! I had been laid off of my last two job in Minnesota and had decided that it was time for a change. Believe it or not, I made that $170 last for an entire month! Granted, I didn't live like a King, but hey, I made due. (It was a heck of a lot better than living on the street like I did for a short time in St. Paul!) So, here I am in San Diego with a $170 worth of one dollar bills in my pocket, ready to take on all the challenges life has to offer! Within a few hours, I land my first job. Within a few months, I am back on my feet and training at the Inosanto Academy in Marina del Rey, California. I was driving two hours and forty minutes one way just to train at the Academy. Plus, my 1964 Dodge Polara was running smooth and clean! After spending a year at the Inosanto Academy, and training under the tutelage of Dan Inosanto, Cass Magda, Salem Assli, Paul and Victor DeThoures, I grew weary of the long commute. I began looking a places closer to San Diego. I stopped by the IMB Academy in Torrance and trained there for a few months. Then, a friend of mine who was training at the Inosanto Academy told me about these Brazilian guys who were awesome on the ground. Up until that point in time, I only had a minimal interest in ground fighting. However, my friend showed me what it was all about. We sparred in the parking lot outside of the Academy. He took me to the pavement and choked me in about ten seconds flat. Now, keep in mind my friend weighed 50 lbs less than I did. Needless to say, I was impressed. No one had ever done that to me before, so I knew he was onto something. So, I went driving through Torrance in search of the new Gracie Academy. When I arrived, I was met by Professor Rorion Gracie. He showed me around his facility and introduced me to everyone. It was a very nice experience. I purchased my first kimono and began my private training with Royler Gracie. This was sometime around December of 1990 or January of 1991. It was the beginning of my addiction to Jiu Jitsu! Don't get me wrong. I still loved JKD, and still do to this day (I am a JKD practitioner first). However, I never knew that practicing an art could be so fun! Well, as soon as I began training at the Gracie Academy in Torrance, funny things began to happen. More on this in the next segment, part three............. Good training to you, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Grapple Man
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 01:32 AM
Cool stuff. Can you add in your Law Enforcement training and career stuff? I remember you mentioned bounty hunting one time??? I think I met you in 1990 or 1991 at UCSD at the groundfighting class you taught. That got me into BJJ!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: KENWINGJITSU
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 01:56 AM
Same bat, time same bat channel? TTT Roy. This is a very welcome post from you.
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From: Grappler1
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 02:27 PM
Argghh, I'm in suspense. Please post more!!
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From: BubbaRayGracie
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 03:10 PM
Don't leave us hanging too long Roy -- I can't wait to hear more.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 03:31 PM
Grapple Man, I began thinking about becoming a police officer in 1987. I applied for a couple of agencies but was rejected. In 1990, I applied to attend a police academy in San Diego as an open enrollee (meaning, I had not yet been offered a job by any law enforcement agency). I was eventually accepted by the academy and began taking classes in January of 1991. My police training lasted until December of that same year. On a side note, 1991 was one of the harder years of my life. I worked full time (40+ hours a week) as a residential security officer for the University of California. I attended the police academy 40 hours a week (this includes classes and driving time to and from the academy). I taught self-defense classes at the University and at a woman's fitness club (6 hours a week). I drove to the Gracie Academy in Torrance at least twice a week, sometimes three times a week (this amounted to anywhere between 15 and 22 hours a week when you add up all the driving time and class time). So when you add up all these hours, you see that I had a very active life: 100+ hours a week working, learning and training! When I graduated from the police academy, it was a big day in my life! I was glad to finally be finished with it and was ready to move on to the next stage of my life. I finally got hired as a police officer in 1993 and worked as a police officer until 1996. However, after a couple of years, I did not like the person I was becoming (I found myself becoming negative, cynical and judgemental, just like the other cops I was working with). I found that my work life was beginning to affect my personal life. So, I made the decision to hang up the badge because the job was a bit too negative for me. I had fought too many political and bureaucratic fights during my four years as a cop and decided I needed something more positive. When I told my sergeant that I was resigning, he spent three hours trying to convince me to stay. He told me I was one of their best cops and that I had a good heart. However, I stayed true to myself and told him that I was not happy, and that I needed to move on. I enjoyed being a cop. However, it was all the other stuff that happened that soured me. Now, before I was a cop, I worked for four years as a private investigator. I performed a ton of surveillance ops, provided personal protection services for a wide range of clients, developed a unique skill at surreptitious entry, performed background checks and financial assessments, tracked (located) people and a variety of other (unnamed) duties. It was a lot of fun!) A part of me misses it. However, I thoroughly enjoy teaching martial arts though. I wouldn't have it any other way. When I teach, I feel as though I am fulfilling a life long calling! When I see students smile, learn, grow and have those "Ah-ha" experiences, my heart warms! I know I am doing what I am supposed to be doing! Well, duty calls. I need to get back to work. More later.............. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 09:00 PM
My journey part three: When I began my training at the Gracie Academy in Torrance, Royler Gracie was my first instructor. He first taught me the basic Gracie Jiu Jitsu method of self-defense. Then, we moved on into the ground techniques and tactics that we all know so well. Well, not only was I taking private lessons with Royler, I was also attending the group classes which were being taught by Rickson, Royler and Royce Gracie. This was quite the treat! I remember thinking to myself, "Wow, these Gracie guys are awesome!" That Rickson guy sure is talented. I remember watching him roll with all 24 of us in class and hardly breaking a sweat. I remember Royce doing the same thing. After my 13th private lesson, Royler Gracie said I could wear the blue belt! I thought to myself, "No way! I get to wear the blue belt? Whoa........" Well, I felt proud the first time I put it on. I also felt a bit scared because now I would have to perform like the other blue belts in class. Well, I headed off to a group class with Royce, and as soon as I walked into the main training room, Royce said to me, "Who gave you the blue belt?" I said, "Royler." Royce had a funny look on his face when I said it. He turned and walked away from me, and my stomach turned. I thought to myself, "the least he could do was congratulate me!" Oh well, I thought. Maybe Royce was in a bad mood again. Anyway, I had a ton of fun training at the Gracie Academy. Even though I had to drive two hours and forty minutes one way to get to the academy, and even though I had to fight through the congested LA traffic on my way home, I thoroughly enjoyed my time there! I especially looked forward to training with Royler because he seemed to teach from his heart! Continued......... Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 09:01 PM
Well, one day I was watching a video in the reception area and Craig Kukuk walked in. He asked, "Who said you could watch that video?" I told him, "Rorion said I could." He asked, "Where did you get the video?" I said, "From Rorion's office? Rorion told me I could go into his office and get a video to watch while I was waiting." Craig snatched the video out of the VCR and told me to never go into Rorion's office again. He said, "Rorion would not want you to watch this video." I asked "Why?" He said, "Because of what is on the tape. You can watch 'Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action Part One', but that's it. All the other tapes are off limits to you!" I thought that was kind of funny, but who was I to argue with Mr. Kukuk? He was a brown belt and I was a lowly blue belt. So, I chalked it up to experience and kept training. I never went into Rorion's office again and never watched a video on my own. Later in my training, I found out that Royler was headed back to Brazil and that Rickson would be leaving the Academy soon. So, I was told to train with Rorion for awhile for my private lessons. I didn't have much choice, but hey, it's all Jiu Jitsu. When I started my private lessons with Rorion, I knew something was different about him. This man knew how to teach and how to make people feel good about themselves. I had a great time learning from Rorion. He taught me a lot about Jiu Jitsu. The pace was a bit slow for me, but still I learned an awful lot from him about Jiu Jitsu! Next, I was told to continue my private training with Royce. However, I ended up taking just group classes instead, and I learned a ton of stuff from Royce. He was a good teacher. However, I noticed certain things about the way he taught. For example, every now and then he would close the door to the training room, look out the window down the hall towards Rorion's office and say: "Don't tell Rorion I showed this to you, and don't do this when Rorion is around. Royce would then proceed to show us some really interesting stuff." I thought his actions were a bit peculiar, but none the less, I kept on enjoying Jiu Jitsu! Several months into my Jiu Jitsu training, a Russian Sambo player (named "Nikolay Baturin") stopped by my self-defense class at the University (of California) and asked to roll with me. I said sure. What happened next was mind blowing! I began to tap the mat like an experienced conga player. I had never felt such pain and pressure on my ankles, knees and hips before. I asked him what he was doing and he said, "Sambo." I asked him if he would mind showing me some of that stuff and he agreed. I trained off and on with him for about the next year. During that time, my familiarity and confidence with leg locks grew and began to manifest itself. I began to tap some of the senior blue belts and newer purple belt at the academy. However, my glory ended abruptly when Rorion called me into the office one day and politely asked me to stop doing leg locks. He said they were causing hard feelings amongst the students, and, he would prefer that I not do them any more. I agreed and kept on training. Well, one day, my friend/Sambo instuctor accompanied me to a training session at the Gracie Academy. Boy was that a memorable experience. I will never forget that day. All classes ceased as Royce and Nikolay engaged in a friendly (and lengthy) grappling match, with all of the Gracie students (and Rorion) watching from the sidelines. What happened during the match was amazing!! To be continued............. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chson
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 09:27 PM
Sweet..
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From: bryans
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 10:33 PM
OTEOMSS (on the edge of my stinkin' seat:-) Please......... more
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From: ParTerre
Date: 07-Aug-01 | 10:50 PM
Agh! What a cliffhanger...
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From: Eel
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 12:58 AM
Roy, Were you in the armed services?
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From: WYATT LEWIS
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 01:24 AM
Man, that would take a lot of balls to travel that for with no money and no prospects.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: KENWINGJITSU
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 01:48 AM
Roy, I hope you archive this when you're done. Please do.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 01:48 AM
Eel, I was in the Air Force Reserve for 8 years! I was a paramedic. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 01:50 AM
WYATT LEWIS, A person has to believe in what they do before they can do it with all of their heart! I knew I would make it in California. I just didn't know when. Roy
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 01:54 AM
KENWINGJITSU, I sure hope I can archive this one before it gets deleted. I've noticed several of my "ACTIVE" threads get deleted every now and then. I could archive it now, but it wouldn't show up on this forum. I will archive it when the posts die down a bit. Roy
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 02:32 AM
Roy, Do you write down the dates of things that happen? I recall that you remember the dates of my belt promotions better than I did.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 03:03 AM
Bolo, No, I don't write down the dates. I just remember it the first time. Do you remember when you started training with me? It was on Friday, July 12, 1991. Roy
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 03:04 AM
My journey part four: When I first brought Nikolay Baturin to the Gracie Academy, he was relaxed. However, things got a little tense there in the beginning. First, Nick began by stretching out in one of the private rooms at the Academy. He was not interested in going into teh big training room. Suddenly, Royce walked in, introduced himself and asked Nick if he wanted to roll "right now." Nick replied, "give me about 15 minutes to warm up and then we'll grapple. Fifteen minutes came and went. Nick went into the big training room and was greeted by a ton of faces, all waiting to see him and Royce do battle. Then, the moment we had all been waiting for, Nick and Royce started grappling from a standing position. This is where things became tense. I knew Nick was an awesome Judoka because I had done some training with him myself. Plus, I had seen Nick throw a lot of the Judo black belts in San Diego, with ease and finesse. So, to see him start standing with Royce made my heart go pitter patter!) Anyway, within a few seconds Nick throws Royce to the ground. Not a hard throw, but a throw none the less. Royce and Nick engage in a bit of ground work and then I see Nick go for Royce's foot, really hard. He had it on real tight too. I saw Royce grimace and move faster than I had ever seen him move before. About twenty seconds later, Royce had escapes Nick's foot lock and was beginning to apply a foot lock of his own (on Nick). Now mind you, Nick does not feel any pain when the foot lock or heel hook is applied. He leg is like a frickin' titanium rod. Nick will even let you lock his leg and relax his foot. Still, he feels no pain. And that's what happened when Royce took his foot. Nick relaxed and let Royce take his foot. Finally, Royce gave up and moved on to something else. There was a number of positional exchanges between Royce and Nick. Neither person was dominating. But then about 10 minutes into the match, Royce got a collar choke on Nick. Nick squirmed and finally tapped. Royce and Nick went again. However, this time Royce knew where Nick was weak: collar chokes. So, Royce went after Nick's neck again and again. Royce repeatedly tapped Nick, again and again. Finally, the match ended. Rorion was sitting nearby and commented on Nick's performance. Rorion said, "Nick, for someone who's never trained in Jiu Jitsu, you have really good technique. I am impressed with your skills." Continued........... Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 03:07 AM
The group class training began and Nick participated. When it came time for mat time (randori), Nick put on a spectacular diplay of Judo! Nick threw everyone around like barbie dolls. He even did randori with just one hand. Nick was awesome. Royce was awesome! I will never forget that night. I can still see that one purple belt being thrown so high his feet nearly hit the ceiling. Rorion told Nick that if he ever wanted to train again, he was welcome at the Gracie Academy. We all shook hands after class and called it a night. (Note: I remember training with Royce the next day in class. I also remember looking down at his left foot and seeing the top of it was all black and blue. I did not say anything though cause I knew where it had come from. I too had been put in a foot lock by Nick and did not tap in time, and remember my instep being black and blue!) ANOTHER NOTE : Nick made a major contribution to my grappling game! Without him, I would not have the leg locking skills I have. Nick, if you're reading this, I want you to know that I truly appreciate the skills you gave me regarding leg locks, especially the straight foot lock!!!! My training at the Gracie Academy continued until August of 1992. At that time, an article had been written about me in the San Diego Union and Tribune newspaper. This article caused Rorion to re-evaluate my training there. Rorion told me that it was not fair that I make money off of him by teaching Jiu Jitsu. He said I would now have to pay him $100 per class if I was going to continue training at the Academy. I told Rorion the following: "I told you (Rorion) about the self-defense class I taught at the University on several occasions. I even asked you if it was all right if I taught the students a few Gracie Jiu Jitsu techniques. You said it was OK as long as I didn't wear a Gracie Jiu Jitsu shirt while teaching." "I also told you (Rorion) that I make $60 a month teaching my self-defense, and that I would give you $30 of it because you were my instructor." I also said, "Rorion, I am paying $240 a month to train with you and your brothers (not to mention the driving time, the gas and the headache of dealing with LA traffic). I have done all of this for almost two years now. Doesn't that show you the kind of loyalty I have for you and your brothers?" Continued.......... Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 03:08 AM
To this Rorion replied, "I am sorry my friend. But this is my final offer." I said, "Rorion, paying $100 per class would mean I would be paying $1400 a month to continue my training with you. I don't have that kind of money." He said, "I am sorry." So, I shook his hand and left the Academy for the last time. That was a very sad day in my martial arts training experience! I was heart broken after that incident. I had dumped my soul into that Academy (not to mention my loyalty to Rorion and Royce) and now I was being treated like a number. However, the story doesn't end there. What I was about to experience next really caught me off guard! More on that later.............. Roy Harris P.S. Rorion, if you are reading this, I hope you know you hurt me a lot on that day. I had put a lot of trust into you, your brothers and your academy, and because you allowed money to come between us, I felt like my loyatly to you meant nothing, and that really hurt! I thought I was your friend because you called me your friend. P.S.S. Royce, if you area reading this I want you to know that I truly respected you as my teacher and thorughly enjoyed learning from you. I sent you several e-mails telling you this. However, you never responded to me. Rorion and Royce, I wish things would have turned out different. I wish we could have remained friends over the years. However, both of you made choices (and said things) that severely impacted my life, and because of it I am now training with Professor Moreira, and my loyalty lies with him. He has my greatest respect and loyalty, something you both had, but discarded. Maybe you can learn something from my pain. If not, that's OK. I wish both of you continued success in all your endeavors!)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 03:08 AM
Wow, you have a really good memory! I didn't recall the exact date, as all I remember was this it was the summer before my freshman year in college. I can't believe I have been training for 10 years! Plus, when we met, you were in your late 20's and I was 17! I recall those night hanging out with you at your security job. It was damn funny when we started wrestling around in your office and then we got caught by your boss! It was have looked odd from her perspective with you sitting on my head!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 03:26 AM
I just want to add acouple things in regards to story about Royce and Nick. First, Royce had the strongest legs for a skinny guy that Nick had ever felt. At one point, when they were standing Royce dropped straight into the triangle choke (when I later asked Royce how he did it, he said that wouldn't not show me until I was brown belt) on Nick. The triangle was not on prefectly and was more on Nick's head than his neck. Royce held the choke for a while and then Nick tapped. Nick said that it felt like the triangle was going to crush his head. He said his face felt like a mashed potatoe. Second, Nick had competed in judo and would often roll to his stomach, grab his own collars, and be very defensive. Nick was very strong for his size and an incredible grip. Royce had a very hard time breaking through Nick's defenses. So he began to put his forearm under Nick's nose to pull his chin up to take the choke. Later, Nick asked Royce if pulling up on someone's nose was legal in BJJ and Royce basically voided answering the question.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: intrigue
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 09:12 AM
I am hooked on these stories! It apparent both Mr. Harris and Mr. Jen put a high value on loyalty. Impressive individuals, to say the least!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Matt-le-kat
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 09:40 AM
GREAT stories!!! I can't wait for more! Roy, you should DEFINATELY write a book. Or at least stick all of these stories on your webpage for ppl to read.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bengan
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 11:46 AM
I agree. Great stories and an interesting insight on what´s important to some people. =( Roy do you mind if I cut and paste your story to put it on a swedish forum? I know many guys that would appreciate your story that doesn´t go here to read. Or maybe you should keep it for a book...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 12:06 PM
bengan, Go ahead and post it on the Swedish forum. However, please post all of it (my stories and the comments of others). Thanks, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: prince ofarmlocks
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 03:46 PM
thanks roy
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From: bounce
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 07:11 PM
GREAT STORY ROY! i'm really interested in your sambo background? do you still train w/ nick? Was he a high level sambo guy and has he incorporated gi chokes since then? Also, can you write about experiences with other sambo practitioners such as gokor and oleg?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: crazycabbie
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 07:19 PM
This is better than the Bruce lee story. It should be a movie. Who's gonna play Roy? Tom hanks ?(just kidding) Probably Denzel Washington.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: GuardMaster
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 07:19 PM
Roy; I can see it now 10 new moves all remembered the first time shown. A powerful memory probably lead to your success. Do you do any training for it?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 07:30 PM
bounce, Unfortunately, I only had the chance to train with Nick during that one year. Nick has since moved up to the San Francisco bay area for work, and I have lost contact with him. Nick was constantly improving his game. While he was teaching me Sambo, he was learning Jiu Jitsu from Chris Hauter, a black belt under the Machado's. Nick told me he was an average Sambo player. He said there were guys in mother Russia who were much better than him. I have not had the privilege to train with Gokor. However, I've heard great things about him as a coach and teacher. I have personally watched his classes in LA and think he is a good teacher. However, because of distance and time, I can not afford to train with him. I would love to train with him. I just wish he was closer! I attended an Oleg Taktarov seminar several years ago. He seemed very likeable and knowledgeable. However, I have never had the chance to train with him. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 07:32 PM
My journey part five: Over the next year, I trained with the likes of Rickson Gracie, the Machado brothers and Nelson Monteiro. It was interesting to train with each of them. They each had their own way of doing things. However, as I trained with each of the above mention instructor, certain issues came up and I was politely told that I was not welcome to train with them any more. That's when I found Joe Moreira. Later on in my training, I began to hear rumors. Rumors that I was doing drugs. Rumors that I was a greedy person who was only in it for the money. Rumors that I was not a good student because I did not pay attention in class. Rumors that I didn't pay my dues. I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. I found out about many of these rumors through prospective students, friends and seminar hosts. I remember teaching a seminar in Washington, D.C. several years ago and a person walked up to me and introduced himself (Let's call him "Alex"). To make a long story short, Alex told me that he had been called by this certain Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor. This certain BJJ instructor told him that I was not qualified to teach what I was teaching. This same BJJ instructor said he wanted Alex to spy on me and listen to anything I said that might be falsified, exaggerated or untrue, and report back to him. I asked Alex, "Do you know, or have you ever met this certain BJJ instructor?" Alex said, "No, I don't know him. I've heard of him before, but I've never met nor spoken with him in person or by e-mail. Can you believe that? Here's another one for you: I remember a certain seminar host asking me if I did drugs. I told him that I do not do drugs and have never done them. To this he replied, "Well, I've heard different." You should have seen the look on my face. A part of me was really hurt. Another part of me was very mad. I couldn't believe what was being said about me behind my back. Continued......... Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 07:33 PM
I remember talking to a seminar host about the lack of attendance at his seminar. He told me that he had heard through the grapevine that people did not want to attend my seminar because: A. They trained only "pure Helio Gracie Jiu Jitsu."
B. Many had heard that I was not that good of an instructor.
C. I should not be teaching a seminar in this part of the country because only instructor "so and so" teaches here. After a year of this, I grew weary of the politics of Jiu Jitsu. However, I was fortunate to find Professor Joe Moreira in Newport Beach in the spring of 1993. He ran me through the hoops because he too had heard bad things about me. As a matter of fact, he called me in to his office to talk to me about what happened between the Gracie's, the Machado's, Nelson Monteiro and I. He told me what the Gracie's, the Machado's and Nelson Monteiro had told him, and I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I asked him if I could continue training with him and he said "yes." A month later, he called me into his office again to chat with me about my problems with the other guys. We talked about everything. I laid my heart out on the table. I figured, "if this guy kicks me out, I'm through with Jiu Jitsu. I don't care how effective it is." Fortunately for me, Joe was very understanding and helpful. He told me that I was now a member of his team and what had happened in the past was water under the bridge. After that meeting, Joe and I developed a great student/instructor relationship, as well as a great friendship! Over the next eight years, Joe and I would train together and have so much fun doing so! He even asked me to help him prepare for his UFC fights. Unfortunately, he got hurt before his fight with Varelans. I told him he shouldn't fight because of his injury. However, he still chose to fight, and as a result, could not give his best performance against the 380 pounder. On one hand, I am glad things turned out the way they did. On the other, I feel bad that things turned out the way they did with the other instructors. All of them were talented grapplers who could teach up a storm when they wanted to. Somehow, a part of me wishes I could mend those relationships, but I know it's not possible. However, I am glad I finally found an instructor who has taught me from his heart! Professor Moreira promoted me to purple belt in 1994, brown belt in 1996, first degree black belt in 1998 and second degree black belt in 2001. I look forward to my continued training with Professor Moreira! In 1998, I started teaching seminars on a full time basis. Up until that point in time, I had only done a few here and there. Now, three years later, I am in full swing! I travel to Europe about five times a year and have a lot of fun teaching over there! The seminar hosts in Switzerland, Italy, Germany, Poland, Slovakia and the UK (England) have treated me like a king. Plus, the scenery there is so different than the US. Who would have thought that I would be doing this for a living? Plus, now I am headed off to Shanghai, China at the end of this month, and possibly Beijing, China next year! Who would have thought I would be teaching a seminar in China? Plus, there's talk of a seminar next year in Australia, as well as my home town of Duluth, Minnesota! Whoo-hoo!!! I'm living a dream! In my next segment, I will discuss my Jeet Kune Do and Filipino Martial Arts training, and their influence on my BJJ training! I will also share with you a few interesting stories from my travels abroad!) Stay tuned...................... Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 07:40 PM
GuardMaster, I am a visual learner! Most of the time, I can watch a new technique and feel how it is supposed to feel without ever practicing the technique. It helps tremendously for retainment! To keep my memory sharp, I read every day, take notes and keep learning. I also train "the mind's eye" by visualizing techniques and concepts in my head. It helps me to feel the moves even though I do not have a person in front of me applying pressure to my body! Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Paladin_VT
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 07:51 PM
As a PSCI student I should not be amazed by any depravity in human relationships, but it amazes me that people will cirulate the untrue, and that others will accept the unproven without a second thought, about a person whom they do not know and have not met. For that reason, I can't comment on the character of some of the people in this story, but it doesn't seem like a very upright thing to do, what they did. Of course, this means if I ever meet one of them they will turn me into contortionist man, but that was still wrong what they did. I don't know why you regret anything that happened with them, though, it would seem from your story that you did nothing wrong, so to hell with 'em!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Crito
Date: 08-Aug-01 | 08:31 PM
Great series of stories! Sounds like your experiences have shaped you into a stronger person. Good luck in all your endeavors. Keep the stories coming! Crito
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Gumby
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 01:02 AM
Great posts Roy.....
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sabrutat
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 01:18 AM
Cracking stuff, Roy. Cheers Stef
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 02:42 AM
I think is very nice that Roy did not mention the specific names of various instructors that did those things to him and said those about him. Since I was with him through those years, I know who was behind some of those things and I think many people would be surprised that the instructors that they idolize so much would do such petty and unprofessional things. If I were in Roy's shoes, I doubt I would have been so nice. On a more positive note, Roy, how about sharing some stories with everyone about training at Joes? Off the top of my head, how about telling them about watching Joe do judo with his students and the incredible throw he did on James? Or maybe the time you rolled with those shootfighters? Or maybe the times you trained with Kimo? How about the first time you rolled with Allan Goes at Joe's?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bengan
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 06:51 AM
Thanks Roy. I´ve just posted everything on the swedish forum. Looking forward to the rest of the story.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Paladin_VT
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 07:39 AM
Bolo, Roy did show more class than those other folks apparently did, and that's a fact.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Matt-le-kat
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 08:52 AM
Roy, how good at BJJ was Bolo when you first met him, and how fast did he learn? Bolo, what were your first impressions of Roy when you first met him? Did you hear the rumours before you met him and were surprised what he was really like?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: pleasedunbeatmeup
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 08:58 AM
Great story roy! Keep em coming!!! -dave
Subject: RE: INFO
From: ParTerre
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 10:00 AM
Thank you for the inspiration Roy.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 02:42 PM
Matt-le-kat, The drama with all the other BJJ instructors began a year and a half after I met Roy. Plus, I came from a traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu background so I did not know anything about the BJJ world. Coming from traditional JJJ, Roy really opened my eyes to realistic and effective martial arts. I looked hilarious when I first started training with Roy with my traditional JJJ stance thinking I was bad ass with my wristlocks and ukemi. After about 3 months, I realized all that I had learned in the past was garbage and would never work in reality. Roy was totally open to showing me what he knew, however, he was very nice and allowed me to make my own conclusion that my traditional JJJ did not work in reality. When I first started training with Roy, I sampled everything. We did kali, kickboxing, BJJ, chin na, etc.... I was very impatient and found that I not only caught onto BJJ quickly, but also that I was able to pull off BJJ techniques in action with less practice than the techniques of other arts. As a result, I decided to mainly focus on BJJ and slowly withdrew from training the other arts.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sovann
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 02:49 PM
This thread should be the first thing folks read when they log on to BJJ Q & A. I feel priveledge to read instruction from Roy and Bolo after reading all the hard work and headaches they've experienced to gain their knowledge and experience. Thanks, Sovann
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 03:54 PM
I think many of the things that happened hurt Roy a lot more on a personal level than me. Plus, Roy was my instructor and regardless of what happened, I still had someone to learn from. Roy was in a difficult situation because every time we got kicked out, he had no instructor. It was just annoying and frustrating to me because I was always guilty by association. Basically, whatever happened to Roy happened to me just because I knew Roy. I would think everything is cool as I was training and going to college and then Roy would tell me that we were not allowed to train with a certain instructors anymore. As I have gotten older and more knowledgable in BJJ, what happened in the past annoys me even more now because I see so many people look at those instructors like gods, giving them their undying loyalty, and throwing money at them, yet they have no idea about the childish and unprofessional things they have done. Yet when Roy and I talk about what happened to us, so many people refuse to believe that their instructors would do such things and look at us as if we were the ones that did something wrong or they say we are "talking shit". The problem is that there many many other people who have also been mistreated, however, they all have chosed to be completely silent about their unfortunate dealings because they are afraid. I apologize for going off on such a rant, but every time I am reminded of what happened, it pisses me off.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bengan
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 04:47 PM
Understandeble. Agree with you Sovann. So TTT
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Mule
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 08:14 PM
TTMFT Man Roy this is great. I had no idea you were a medic in the Air Force and a cop. I was a medic in the Oklahoma Army National Guard for 6 years and I've been a cop for 4 years. I to feel the same way you did about law enforcement but my feelings were brought on by incompetence in the leadership and two very serious use of force issues. Thanks for sharing this Mr. Harris. When you archive this I'm saving it to my hard drive.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: m.g
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 08:27 PM
Roy, Bolo, I think those instructors said what they said and did what they did partly out of fear and jealousy. At least some of them. The others probably just jump on the band wagon. But look how things have turn out now. I bet those who were quick to critcize you both are the same ones stealing your teaching methods and ideas (you two have some of the most repected instructional videos out there. People have responded to the way you two teach Bjj probably more so then all the instructors who seemly were out to destroy your name).
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Dan MacMillan
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 09:25 PM
What a great thread! I've been checking this forum like an addict looking for his fix! Roy / Bolo - Were you at Torrance when Oleg Taktarov came by and tried to work out a training relationship with Rorian and company? This would have been in the very early days of the UFC, when he first arrived in the US. He apparently rolled with a number of people and did well, but was told he would have to pay for classes if he wanted to return. I'm wondering if your friend Nick was the first Sambo player they had encountered, or if Oleg had already visited. Great stories! -Dan
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Mule
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 09:27 PM
What video did Kukuk freak out over? LOL
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 09-Aug-01 | 09:38 PM
Dan, Roy and I were at Torrance far before the first UFC. So Oleg's visit much have much later than when we were there.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Grapple Man
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 12:22 AM
So you guys were out of the Torrance Gracie academy before UFC 1 even happened? I bet it would have been really interesting to be there during the early UFC's. Roy, do you think your extensive use of leg locks is one of the reasons you were ostracised from the various academies? I notice that even today a lot of schools look down on using leg locks even in practice.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Brassmonkey
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 01:54 AM
Roy great thread. I think it takes alot of courage to open up to so many people about being treated badly like this, my hats off to you. We dont exactly have the other side of things but I tend to believe you from what I've read in other posts youve written. This thread is a great reminder that skill and good character don't always go hand and hand unfortunately. For me I have to trust the character of the teacher I'm with otherwise how am I going to put any faith into the techniques and principles I learn.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: jeyel
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 06:00 AM
Roy Great stories! At last there's something that keeps me coming back to the BJJ forum! More! More!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sovann
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 10:29 AM
Roy, Can you write more about your training with Paul Vunak and PFS? When did you become VP? Have you ever fought in a Dog Brothers Gathering?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 03:55 PMMy journey part six: During my twenty years of the study of martial arts, I've been privileged to study a ton of different styles. Each style had a unique way of doing things. I purposely studied different arts because I wanted to see how each art addressed fighting. For example, Jiu Jitsu was great on the ground. Judo was an awesome throwing art. Boxing was great with the hands. Savate was unbelieveable with the feet. Kali taught me weapon and weaponless defenses for the blade. Chin Na taught me the finer points of maniuplating joints. Silat taught me how to effectivey enter and sweep with authority! What I found in my study of these arts was that: 1. Each style had strengths and weaknesses. 2. Each style had the potential to be effective in a self-defense situation. 3. The effectiveness of each style was dependent upon two factors: a. the quality of the instruction received from the master.
b. the personal discipline of the individual practitioner. During my journey, I've seen the benefits of all styles of martial art and have observed five (5) broad categories of styles: 1. Traditional.
2. Eclectic.
3. Sportive.
4. Holistic.
5. Combative. Traditional styles focus on developing personal discipline in their students. To them, self-defense is not a matter of physical technique. Rather, it is a method of controlling one's mind, mouth, actions and emotions. Eclectic styles are usually headed by charismatic individuals, who have studied a variety of different styles of martial arts and have come up with their own way of doing things. The eclectic styles are more self-defense and physical fitness oriented. Sportive styles place a heavy emphasis on competition and preparing for comeptition. Holistic styles work on the development of the inner person, similar to the traditional styles. However, their emphasis is on stress reduction, relaxation, nutrition, physical conditioning, meditation and philosophy. Combative styles emphasize combat. What is combat? Well, my Kali instructor in the Philippines said it this way: "Combat is simple - it's either your life or mine!" And because combat is different than sport and entertainment, the focus of training is different. Continued......... Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 03:56 PMHere's an example: When I trained with my Kali instructor in the Philippines, he only allowed me to wear protective gear during my first lesson. After that, I had to perform the drills, as well as spar with him without any protection! Keep in mind that we trained with a heavy blade with rounded edges. My instructor told me, "this was the only way you would know if you could protect your hand and your body when a blade was being swung at it." When I would make a simple mistake, my instructor made sure I understood that my hand was unprotected for a short period of time by either tapping my hand or forearm with his blade, or by placing his blade very close to my face!!! (In the art of Kali, if you can't protect your hand against the blade, you can't protect the rest of your body) The training methods I was exposed to in the Philippines blew my mine! I got a first hand look at (as well as a ton of first hand experience of) how someone would prepared for combat. It totally revolutionized the way I look at martial arts training! Of all the styles I've been involved in, Kali is my favorite! Why? Because I can adapt Kali to any situation. I can kick box with a blade. I can box with a blade. I can trap with a blade. I can grapple with a blade. I can thow with a blade. I can perform single or double leg take downs with a blade. I can ground fight with a blade. I can use a stick or other blunt weapon with a blade. I can use a firearm with a blade. I can adapt the blade to any situation and make it work. This is why I love the blade so much! Now, of course I love Brazilian Jiu Jitsu! It comes in as a close second. However, I love BJJ because it is something I do for enjoyment. It's something I can continue to do for the next 40 years or so. Of course, I can do the same with a blade. However, the blade puts me into combat mode! I feel different with a blade in my hand. Jiu Jitsu makes me feels like a kid. I can do Jiu Jitsu all day long and talk trash, crack jokes and make a fool of myself. Jiu Jitsu makes me feel jovial and playful!) Whereas the blade makes me feel serious, determined and focused. Continued........ Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 03:57 PMNow, my involvement with Jeet Kune Do has been very fascinating. I first started with Sifu Rick Faye in Minnesota. Then, I trained with Sifu Inosanto and Guru Cass Magda at the Inosanto Academy. While I was at the Inosanto Academy, I also had a chance to train with Sifu Larry Hartsell. I thoroughly enjoyed my training time there. I just wish it hadn't been so far away. Five to six hours on the road for each training session became a chore after 12 months. As much as I enoyed training there, I had to find something closer. That's when I found Sifu Paul Vunak in Long Beach, California in 1988. I remember my first training session with Sifu Paul. There were a bunch of guys training in the back of the apartment complex he lived in. I came in and was welcomed with open arms. However, I soon found of that some of his boys did not like "new guys." I soon became fresh meat for a couple of them. I remember this one guy (I believe his name ws Mark Bailuff) kicking my butt during our first sparring session and Sifu stepping in to calm him down. Every time I went with that guy, he always went full-bore on me! Finally it got to a point where I did not want to spar with this guy because I would end up bruised and very sore after every training session. I can still picture those black and blue marks on my legs! Still, it was an eye opening experience. I feel fortunate to have spent a ton of private lessons with Sifu Paul Vunak in his garage back in the late 80's and early 90's. Things were so different back then. I remember when Sifu Paul introduced me to the various concepts of Jeet Kune Do and I would have one of those "Ah-ha" experiences. I specifically remember a training session where Sifu Paul showed me how the centerline concept of Wing Chun could help me with my stick training. During that same session, he showed me how the hard core training methods of Muay Thai could be implemented in my Wing Chun training, as well as how the destruction training method of Kali could be implemented in my close-quarter boxing methods. These simple concepts radically changed the way I train. I found myself applying many of these concepts and training methods to the other styles I had studied. Well, I could go on, but my fingers are becoming tired from all this hunt and peck stuff. I'm gonna go grab some sleep and write a little more later. Ciao for now, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 04:13 PMnice
Subject: RE: INFO
From: KENWINGJITSU
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 06:15 PMTTMFT
Subject: RE: INFO
From: jkd_guy
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 07:12 PMRoy, Great story!! 2 Questions: 1. 'He said, "Rorion would not want you to watch this video." I asked "Why?" He said, "Because of what is on the tape. You can watch 'Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action Part One', but that's it. All the other tapes are off limits to you' What kind of tape was it? What was on it? 2. 'For example, every now and then he would close the door to the training room, look out the window down the hall towards Rorion's office and say: "Don't tell Rorion I showed this to you, and don't do this when Rorion is around. Royce would then proceed to show us some really interesting stuff' What type of things did he show the class that Rorion did not want you all to learn? Thanks -Tony
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Mike Yelsik
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 07:38 PMroy, Have you ever had any exposure to Cuong Nhu? I am curious if you have any opinion on this style. Thanks in advance. Your posts are amazing. Keep up the great work. Mike
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Prov305
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 09:26 PM1) I was wondering where and who you recieved your leglock knowledge from ? and 2) how would you rate BJJ no-gi to the Japanese Shooto style, I love both of these art and am wanting your oppinion on which you think is better with N0-gi.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Spankenstyne
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 09:33 PMWow, this is a GREAT thread Roy..It's so cool to hear more of the history behind a guy like yourself.It's amazing you're such a good natured guy and so willing to share after some of the stuff you've been through.Then again the more i think about it the more it makes sense :) On a side note just an FYI, i don't know if it applies in here or not but there was an archived thread by someone else in the OG that i had saved on my "my threads list".I could see it in "my threads" after 10 days even and when i posted on it, it came back to the forum. This really deserves to be saved, and you really need to write a book!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 10-Aug-01 | 10:57 PMI'll 100% be at ure sydney, Australia seminar !!!!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: PERKDOG
Date: 11-Aug-01 | 05:21 AMTTT!! This is by far one of the most informative posts Ive read
Subject: RE: INFO
From: ParTerre
Date: 11-Aug-01 | 09:30 AMGreat story. If anyone deserves the "Blade" nickname, it's Roy!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: FrankyBigguns
Date: 11-Aug-01 | 11:53 AMsomeone ARCHIVE THIS THREAD WHEN ROY IS FINISHED TELLING US ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCES! This has got to be one of the best reads ever here on MMA.com next to Kimura's judo book. Roy ... sounds like an amazing story! By the way, your videos are some of the best and clearest instructed videos out there.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 11-Aug-01 | 12:05 PMRoy please keep it comming!!!! I wanna hear bout the shootfighters...kimo etc!!! Stickgrappler get on here and archive!!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: iwantmynhb
Date: 11-Aug-01 | 02:04 PMJust wanted to say "thanx". Paul
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 11-Aug-01 | 08:15 PMjkd_guy, To answer oiur first question: It was a tape of Royler Gracie challenge matches. To answer your econd question: I assume it was techniques that he felt Rorion did not want us to know. Otherwise, why would he do what he did? -------------------------------------------------------- Mike, I have never had any exposure to the Vietnamese art of Cuong Nhu. All I know if what I have read in magazines. -------------------------------------------------------- Prov305, Before I answer your question, I must tell you I like your nick name. Proverbs is one of my favorite books! I received my leg lock knowledge from Nikolay Baturin. I have grappled a ton of shooto stylists, many of whom were very knowledgeable on the ground. However, each one of them lacked and tightness. What I felt from each one of them was "Athleticism" (which is a force to be reckoned with). Jiu Jitsu is better for learning how to control an opponent and prevent an opponent from controlling you. Shooto is more offensive. However, it can teach you a lot more about striking much more than Jiu Jitsu. Both arts are good for sportive grappling! Good training to you, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: lions-d
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 12:15 AMcan you talk about rolling with allan goes
Subject: RE: INFO
From: coop12
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 03:24 AMI've just gotten interested in Jiu-Jitsu and have found a lot of great help and information here. I wanted to say thank you and that it's really cool for you to be so honest about your experience in martial arts and with individual martial artists.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: BJJWRESTLER
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 08:57 AMJust a note here about Nick,the russian guy.I have a tape of a Sombo tournament that includes Nick,the Machadoes,and Rickson.Nick 1st faced Jean Jacque and Carlos,I think its them,and they couldnt get a submission on Nick, his defense was very good,and he took them down pretty easy.Nick then faced Rickson,which was a different story.Rickson controlled the match from takedown all the way to the end,where he armbarred Nick from cross side.Pretty impressive.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: s98ronin
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 09:01 AMOne of the best threads I´ve read. Lots of cool inside stuff. I really hope that I can make your swedish seminar in september...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Duchman
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 09:24 AM
Roy,
1 Have you ever traind with gene lebell? if so, what did you think of him?
2 Have you ever traind in catch wrestling? if so with who? and what did you think of it? thanks, Aaron
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bengan
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 10:08 AM
let this thread live for a long time.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: reptile
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 12:56 PM
Amazing stuff! Thanks for sharing it with us Roy.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: skimmy
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 05:25 PM
This is a great post Roy. It's very inspiring. Thanks for sharing it with us. I'm moving to San Diego in 3 weeks, and I've also been through many different instructors and styles,(I love bjj the most though) and after reading your thread, I'm looking forward to enrolling at your school. See you in a month!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: GuardMaster
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 06:07 PM
Roy: How do you maintain your enthusiasm for training after so many years? I don't seem to have the same excited attitude I had than when I was 18. Can you give some advice on what keeps your batter ticking when things get stale in training?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 08:49 PM
lions-d, I've only rolled with Allan Goes on a couple of occasions back in 1995. He is very good with the gi! ---------------------------------------- Duchman, I have never trained with Judo Gene LeBell. However, I'd love to do so. I know he is extremely knowldgeable in a variety of different grappling arts. I only wish his school wsa closer to San Diego. I met him once at a Jiu Jitsu tournament. He and I had some interesting conversation! I remember watching him on TV as a kid. I remember watching his grapple 600 lbs. bear and pinning them to the mat. I remember his back bleeding from the bears paws. Mr. LeBell is a living legend! If you ever have the opportunity to train with him you should. He (in my opinion) is the Grandfather of Grappling in this country! He was doing it before it was ever popular or mainstream. When I was training at the IMB academy back in the late 80's, I remember doing some of te techniques back then. However, I have never received instruction from a certified instructor. Besides, there really aren't that many of them out there (at least nt in the public's eye). I think Catch Wrestling has something to offer anyone who has an open mind and is looking for something new and different. From what I have seen of Catch Wrestling, it is not "the average man's art." The art leans towards those who are larger in size, as well as those who are athletic. Granted, that may not be te entire art, but all I've seen on tape are powerful and explosive movements. If you have the chance to study it, do so. I am sure you will find something you will like! ---------------------------------------- skimmy, I look forward to meeting you in a few weeks! Please kep in mind that I will be in Shanghai, China August 29 through September 5. So, if you come be during this time, I will not be around. However, there will be classes. Gotta go practice my Mandrin! ---------------------------------------- GuardMaster, How do I keep my enthusiasm high? By always looking for something new! Too often, students and instructors do the same things, day in and day out, week in and week out. What needs to happen every couple of months or so is for you to try something different and new! I know many of us are afraid of new things, especially things we don't like or understand. However, new things invigorate our minds. They challenge us in new ways we never thought possible. Additionally, every now and then, you need to take a complete break from martial arts! Take a week or a month off (maybe even a couple of months) and do something else with your time. If you love martial arts, your love will one day return to you! Enthusiasm is an emotion tha comes and goes! When it goes, it is important to know how to bring it back! Granted, it may never be like it was in "the old days." However, you can recharge those batteries and start all over again if ou put your mind to it!!!! Good training to you all, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: IronHeart
Date: 12-Aug-01 | 09:32 PM
TTT
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Spankenstyne
Date: 13-Aug-01 | 12:50 AM
Skimmy, he'll blow your mind bro.I know you'll be impressed.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: skimmy
Date: 13-Aug-01 | 05:18 AM
Awesome.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Stickgrappler
Date: 13-Aug-01 | 06:21 AM
Roy, thank you for sharing! continuted success!! LEMon, i'm on it!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sovann
Date: 13-Aug-01 | 10:41 AM
Roy, Do you incorporate any silat in your BJJ?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: jkd_guy
Date: 13-Aug-01 | 11:32 AM
Roy, Thanks for the answers...BUT: 'To answer your econd question: I assume it was techniques that he felt Rorion did not want us to know. Otherwise, why would he do what he did? ' What I meant, was, what were some of the moves that Rorion didnt want you all to learn...like was it jumping, upside down triangle or something like that? Or was it a way to make a particular submission easier to apply, etc. Thanks -Tony
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 13-Aug-01 | 04:16 PM
sovann, I do not incorporate Silat into my BJJ because they are so very different. Silat is purely a defensive art. The goal is very different from BJJ. However, I do incorporate certain throws and sweeps from Silat into the JKD training. Kenjit Siko works very well with kick boxing and trapping range drills and sparring! ----------------------------------- jkd_guy, The techniques that Royce showed us that we were not supposed to do around Rorion involved escapes. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ilonggo
Date: 13-Aug-01 | 05:52 PM
roy, thanks for a very informative thread. i can't believe the dedication you put in by driving 2 hrs + just to train! i've been guilty myself of not training for the past 5 mos., due to the distance that i must drive to a quality bjj school here in columbus. not to mention being a full time family man doesn't help much either. how do motivate yourself by driving that distance multiple times a week? like you said, if you love the arts, one day it will return to you. my urge to start training again is very strong, it's just that the thought of driving (in my case, it's about 60 miles away) kinda depresses me. i've decided to start up again (hopefully) next month. keep up the good work, roy...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 13-Aug-01 | 06:10 PM
Ilonggo, Find something to do while you are driving. Purchase a good set of books on tape: learn a new language, develop your english vocabulary, learn a new hobby, learn something while you are driving down the road. Plus, find a good book store, coffee shop, computer store or something that's about half way between home and the school. When you head back home, stop by your favorite store and relax for a bit. It will take the sting out of the hour on the road! If you focus only on the BJJ training, it may not be worth the hassle. However, if you see another benefit to the trip (such as getting away from the family for an extra 30 minutes, taking notes and letting your mind soak in all the new BJJ info you just learned, learning something new, hanging out with a new friend, etc...), it will take the drag out of travel. Good luck! Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: RobRPM2222
Date: 13-Aug-01 | 11:51 PM
wow. I say, wow. this thread MUST be archived! BTW, Roy, did you do any Strength/Conditioning/Cardio programs at any time during your martial arts career? If so, could you elaborate on your experiences with different programs, any realizations that you might have needed to condition yourself, etc?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: OMAC
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 12:53 AM
excellent thread! thank you for sharing that w/ us! :)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 02:28 AM
Roy posted this on another forum: You asked, "Why and what happened to the machado's and rickson?" Well, I was told that I was not welcome to train with them any more! With Rickson, it was a matter of respect. One day, Rickson and I were talking in his office. I told him I was taking private lessons with Nelson Monteiro. Right in the middle of my sentence, he got up out of his chair and walked out of his office. He never spoke to me again. I kept calling him to set up a private lesson but he never returned my calls any more. When I showed up at his school, Luis Heredia (sp?) told me that I had disrespected Rickson by telling him that I was taking private lessons from someone else. I told Luis, "I have to travel 90 minutes to train with Rickson and pay $140 an hour. Nelson Monteiro lives five minutes from my house and only charges $40 an hour. It's quite simple. I can only afford to train with Rickson once a month because of time and money. I meant no disrespect to him, I was just being honest with him." To this Luis replied, "I know. However, Rickson does not want to train you any more. I am sorry my friend." (By the way, I told Nelson Monteiro that I was taking private lesson with Rickson and he told me that he did not mind.) I was asked to leave the Machado's because John Machado accused me of being a traitor. You see, the Machado's had lost to my Russian friend Nikolay Baturin in a Sambo match, and they blamed me for their loss. After the tournament, I called the Machado school on several occasions to set up my next private lesson with Rigan. However, no one returned my call. I even drove up to the school to talk to them in person. When I did, John Machado met me at the door and said, "What are your doing here?" I told him that I wanted to set up my next private lesson. John told me to come back next Saturday because he and his brothers wanted to talk with me about something very important. So, the next Saturday, I drove all the way up to Redondo Beach from San Diego (two hours and twenty five minutes) to speak with the Machado brothers. When I arrived, John Machado was locking up the school. I walked up to him and said, "Hey John." Again, John asked me what I was doing there at their school and I reminded him of our appointment. John Machado then told me the following: "My brothers and I have decided that you are no longer welcome to train at our school. We have decided this because you are waiving two flags. You trained your friend Nick with the Jiu Jitsu we taught you, and now you want to continue your training with us. Well, in Brazil we call it waiving two flags: a traitor! You are not welcome to train here any longer." I told John, "I had not trained Nick because I had not seen him in about a year. And besides, Nick could make me tap left and right. I had nothing to teach him." To this, John replied, "The only way Nick could have beaten us was because you taught him Jiu Jitsu." Now, I knew who was teaching Nick Jiu Jitsu. It was one of their own purple belts. However, it was not my place to jeopardize this guys training to get myself out of a sticky situation. And besides, if the Machado's did not believe me, I did not want to train with them anyway. I believe loyalty goes two ways: student to instructor AND instructor to student. I believe what they say, and they should believe what I say! Period!!!! I asked John if there was anything I could do or say to change his mind or his brothers and he said, "No. We've already made up our minds." So, I walked away and never returned. Now you know! Roy Harris
Subject:
From: magoo520
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 03:26 AM
dam Roy much drama!! that sucks though! Much politics and BS in the BJJ world..but im sure its like that in any system or art that you study! Hey everything happens for a reason and I think because of it..your a better instructor and a better person..great stuff Roy. Your the man!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bengan
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 03:36 AM
I feel very ambivalent reading these things, I think it´s good to really see how things are, but on the other hand all those guys where kindof my Idols and I would never expect them to behave like that. But maybe it´s good to get your illusions crushed once in a while.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Martin Mantay
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 08:54 AMWhy would Rickson have a problem with you taking privates with someone else?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Marco M
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 09:32 AMMan I think I would have blown my top if an instructor was that disrespectful to me. You should tell him that when he works a 9-5 for you and pays your bills he can tell you how to spend your money. Geez, so much politics man. Just train everywhere you can and round yourself out as much as possible.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: pleasedunbeatmeup
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 10:06 AMi think its a matter of ego. i think alot of instructors think they're the best and that going to another instructor would mean that the student didn't think that his instructor was the best. Some ppl are just unreasonable, and some are more understanding. -dave
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ilonggo
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 10:31 AMthank you very much for responding, roy. twenty years in the arts and it seems like to be where you're at today, you were seeking the best instructors out there, even if you have to drive for hours. i used to think about the stories i've heard about inosanto, bustillo, and others who would travel for hours one way just to have a quality escrima teacher. i guess a little sacrifice won't hurt...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: socal
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 12:38 PMarchive this thread
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Stickgrappler
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 12:50 PM
business is business. it hurts to have a loss when you are trying to promote your style as the BEST. it's unfortunate but ego probably does play a huge part in it. any scapegoat would do in that case. it's also like the gunfighter syndrome = who's the fastest gun? gotta challenge you. eventually it will catch up to you and you will lose. but until then, the myth, the rep is built up so much, you will fall from a very lofty pedestal once you lose. from a student's perspective, you expect the instructor to support you, encourage you and not to use you as an excuse or just thought of as a meal ticket. but the reality is business is business. a man has got to eat, right? he has to support his family right? we just lost to your friend, you must've taught him our style or you went to another instructor and did not stay with me - get out. maybe i'm just rambling. anyway, thanks again to Roy for sharing his experiences.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 01:48 PM
For all of you reading this thread, I need to interject something here: My purpose in writing all of this is NOT to say how bad the other instructors are NOR how good I am. I do not consider myself better than any of them! My purpose is simple: after all these years, I wanted to clear the air! Many rumors have flown around the globe about me and I just wanted people to know what happened to me during the beginning years and why certain rumors may have been started. Too often, when negative information is dissenminated on a public forum, people jump on the band wagon and begin taking sides. For example, since I've written about what has happened to me, I have been very careful not to mention certain things or certain names. However, some people chose to zero in on the missing info and ask what happened. Plus, Bolo has chosen to "try and help me out by telling the rest of the story." Well, I never meant for every little detail (nor all of the involved parties) to be out in the open. I just wanted to tell a few stories about why I ended up training with different instructors. Because of my involvement in the intelligence industry, I have found that the way the story is told determines how people react to it. If any exaggerations are placed in the story or details are left out, people can get the wrong idea. For example, Bolo said, "The Machados were consistantly losing to Nick in sambo competitions. " Well, that's not quite true. The Machados fought against Nick twice and lost. In my book, that's a bit different from implying they were "consistently losing" to Nick. Bolo also said, "They (the Machados) did not like the fact that they were losing to our friend and accused us of teaching Nick BJJ techniques to beat them." That too is not quite true. John Machado accused "ME" of teaching Nick Jiu Jitsu. Bolo was no where around when this happened. All of these incidents (at the Gracie Academy, with Rickson and with the Machados) happened to me, directly. Yes, Bolo was a student of mine at the time, and yes, Bolo was guilty because of his association with me. However, the instructors made their choice to not allow me to train with them. The only person who verbally stated that Bolo (Mike Jen) could not train with them was Rorion Gracie. Rorion said this because Bolo was a regular student at the Academy and because Rorion knew that Bolo assisted me in my self-defense classes. However, Bolo was not a regular student of the Machados nor Rickson. Now, with regard to the rest of the "negative" stories (or for that matter, "more details"), I am finished focusing on the negative. I request that all of you refrain from asking ( or adding) more details about what happened with this instructor or that instructor. I do not want this thread to turn into a bashing thread, or a thread "that implies" I am bashing other instructors. My goal in writing this thread was to share information with all of you about my beginnings. From now on, I would like this post to focus on the positive and the funny! Thanks, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 01:51 PM
My journey part seven: Over the past 20 years, I've had the privilege to train with a variety of different instructors. There a couple of incidents that stand out in my mind, and I'd like to share them with you. Several years ago, I had the chance to train with Sensei Darrell Bullock and Professor Robert Crosson in "Sugar ryu Ju Jitsu." Both of these gentlemen came from New York and had that "New York mentality (attitude)!" I remember training finger locks with both of these gentlemen and I can't tell you of a more painful day of training. All the kick boxing, stick fighting and Judo throws do not compare with someone grabbing your fingers (repeatedly) and throwing your body around like a rag doll! A two hour training session with these guys left my fingers (wrist and shoulders) very sore! One day in particular, I remember going over a finger lock resistance flow drill and being locked, thrown and countered so much that I wanted to give up. My fingers were killing me. After class, Sensei bullock told us that we were going to give a martial arts demonstration down at Sea Port Village (which is a tourist area down by the bay in San Diego) that weekend and he wanted volunteers. Well, I thought this would be a great opporunity for the general public to see Sugar ryu Ju Jitsu so I volunteered to go. Well, what I didn't know ws we were going to do this demonstration on concrete. Well, I ended up taking throw after throw after throw after throw! Now keep in mind, some of these throws were hard to break fall out of because of the intense amount of pressure that was being applied to one or two of your fingers just before (and during) the throw. However, when the Judo type throws were executed, I welcomed them with open arms because they gave my fingers a break! (no pun intended!) Yes, that concrete was hard. Yes, the roll outs over cars, bicycles, benches and trash cans was hard on the body. Yes, the Judo throws hurt a bit. But none of them compared with being throw while someone had a hold firm grip on your fingers!!! Anyways, the demonstration was a success. We put on a fantastic demo for about an hour! The only draw back was MY soreness the following day!) Even still, I had a lot of fun. AND, I never knew I could take such punishment and live to tell about it! (Let me tell you, if you've never been thrown, repeatedly, on concrete, you don't know what you're missing!) I really enjoyed training with Sensei Bullock. He taught me a lot. Unfortunately, he decided to move his family back to New York, and so our training ceased. This was 1988. Continued......... Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 01:53 PM
Here's another story for ya: In my travels to seek out new instructors and new styles, I found a gung fu specialist who was teaching classes out of a small building in downtown San Diego. This chap was quite interesting. What happened duringn my visit with him was something I will never forget! I walked into his studio on a cold San Diego day (meaning it was 67° degrees outside). I watched a couple of his classes and chatted with him about martial arts. I found this chap was really into the esoteric styles of martial arts. When I asked him about "functionality and practicality", he told me that he was no longer interested in them. He said, "Arts like Jeet Kune Do, Kali and Muay Thai are too simple. They no longer offer me anything of real value. When I asked why, he said, "Throw a punch at me." I said, "Uh, that's OK, I just wanted to know more about your system and why you teach the way you do." He continued, "Throw a punch at me." So, I did. And what happened next blew my mind. I decided to throw a punch at him, however, I did not want to disrespect him in his own studio, in front of his own students. So, I chose to throw a slow haymaker punch at him and just watch what he did. To my surprise, he did something no one else has ever done before (or since). Are you ready for this: In the blink of an eye, this gentleman ducked underneath the punch, drilled his head into the center of my chest and began running forward as fast as he could, forcing me to run backwards. While he was running forward, both of his hands were snatching at (and grasping for....yep, you guessed it) my balls! Of course, I had to defend myself but what could I do. I was running backwards with a wall fast approaching. I kept trying to deflect his snatches but my hands weren't quite fast enough. By the time we hit the wall, he had a hand full of my nuts and I was screaming for him to let go! (I guess in gung fu, that's what they call "Monkey snatches the fruit!) Anyway, he told me that he had practiced a martial art style in Hawaii called "Lua." He said he had spent two years on the beach (in the sand) doing a simple drill like the one he had just done on me. He said, "practitioners would practice evading a punch or kick and then run at the assailant, full force until a testicle was snatched!" He ended by saying, "What more do I need to self-defense? You see and feel how practical it is." To this, I replied (in my soprano voice), "Uh, I don't know." He told me, "That's why I study the esoteric martial arts. They invigorate my mind! The simple arts do nothing for my mind." And so with that, I shook his hand (read "guarded my groin with the other hand"), thanked him for his time and walked out the door. That, was quite the experience! I thought you might enjoy hearing this story!) I will write more later. Good training to you all, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 02:36 PM
The post you are referring to in regards to the Machados was not made to "fill in the details". Someone reposted a post I made over a month ago when asked what happened with the Machados. I have not made any comment on Rickson because I have never trained with him besides a group class he participated in when we were at Torrance. It is correct that no one spoke to me directly in regards to the various issues. Even with Rorion, where my name was specifically mentioned, I never spoke to Rorion. I was just told by Roy that I was not longer allowed to train there. I was 18 years old and most of the time, whenever, I went to any of the instructors/schools, it was with Roy since he was my instructor. So when any issue came up, they always spoke to Roy. I always believed that what various instructors said to Roy also applied to me because I received the exact same treatment as Roy and knew/associated with the same people as Roy did (like Nick).
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ridgeback
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 03:37 PM
Roy, I am sorry to have to say this, but you can't tell these stories without it sounding like you are bashing these instructors. If what you are saying is the absolute truth (and I have no reason to doubt you) then it makes them look bad. I for one am glad you are revealing these details because it helps newer students make informed decisions and avoid a lot of pitfalls. There is a lot of bad stuff that goes on behind the scenes of bjj in terms of business rip-offs, favoritism and dishonesty in teaching and general bullying and intimidation. Most people are too afraid to reveal there bad experiences so this stuff never gets out and more students get fooled or mistreated. When you open a can of worms like this, its going to have negative effects. Secondly, its sounds like (and I am not sure this is your intention) that you are disrespecting Bolo. For one reason or another he felt like we wasn't able to train at the Machado's either. If it was ok for him to go on training with them, then he decided to stick with you and take the heat with you anyway. What difference does it make? I wish I had more friends like that!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: m.g
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 04:00 PM
Roy, You story is very moving and poignant. I respect you even more after you posted that this thread isn't meant to bash instructors. You've always presented fair and honest info about other instructor without being too personal. But I do believe you were geninuely hurt by Rorion, the Machados, and Rickson. I think this comes out in your comment as you tell your story. I think there was probably alot of misunderstanding and hurt feelings on their part as well. Have you tried to make amends with any of those guys? I mean the past is the past. And I believe you have stated you've forgiven them for any wrong they may have done against you. Perhaps things were allowed to happen for a reason. But I can't help but to feel bad that such things have happen. I know you've tried to talk to them in the past, have you tried recently? Just curious.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: rottotrot
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 04:49 PM
Roy, you wrote, "I do not want this thread to turn into a bashing thread, or a thread "that implies" I am bashing other instructors." A little too late for that don't you think? "Too often, when negative information is dissenminated on a public forum, people jump on the band wagon and begin taking sides." You can say that again! I have no doubt about your abilities Roy or even the veracity of your stories, however,like anything in life, everything you said here has gone through "your" perspective.All these people you mention have "their" perspective on the situation and acted according to what they felt was right for "them" at the time.Obviously you feel you are right and they are wrong, but I'm sure they in turn, feel that they were right and you were wrong. What troubles me is the fact that through out your career you have made a big effort to always point out the negatives about just about everything related to BJJ(and it's instructors) that does not involve you or Bolo. Bolo in particular, is fond of deriding the "politics" of Jiu Jitsu, yet isn't that exactly what you both are engaged in perpetuating? The fact of the matter is that there are both negatives and positives in the world JJ across the country( like every other sport!!!!), so why not concentrate on the positive to elevate the sport ,rather than to tear it down. Seems to me that the bulk of the "politicking" that goes on, goes on in this very forum! Frequenting this forum ,readers get the impression that Bjj is, just a bunch of rivalries, infighting, and bad mouthing.That doesn't describe my experience in the real world! What I do find, is a great sense of pride , camraderie and respect at every academy I have visited. From my observations the bulk of Jiu Jitsu schools out there are filled with enthusiastic, dedicated and GOOD people that enjoy Jiu Jitsu. Schools led by hard working, honest and interested instructors.Instructors that don't have the time or inclination to criticize every little thing they disagree with, on the internet. While no one can erase the negative experiences you and Bolo have gone through with the aforementioned parties, the fact remains that those experiences were exclusive to you( not to mention a looooong time ago) and conversely,many ,many others have had the exact opposite experience with those same parties.I just hope your readers keep that in mind when reading "your journey". Much respect and good training to you!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: djones
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 05:34 PM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: prince ofarmlocks
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 05:40 PM
rot, their is no bashing here, he is just saying what happened and I'm sure you wouldn't be shocked to hear that these sort of things have happened to countless others as well, some of which not so loooong ago. But if you want to pay machado's or Rickson $250 a month and still can't roll outside of class go ahead, no ones questioning their skills. It is for these reasons that almost all BJJ student's will always be one dimensional, and forever passed left behind by the vale tudo world. Remember, most people start BJJ to fight, or train in a form of fight.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 05:56 PM
rottotrot, I cannot speak for Roy on your point, however, in my opinion, in BJJ, there is too much of "hide the truth" in BJJ. For me it has nothing to do with politics. It's like a car salesman selling me a bad car or giving me bad customer service and then telling people about the bad product or service I got. As a consumer, would you want to know if someone else was sold a lemon? There are tons of people who have gotten shafted in worse ways, yet no one says anything. All we hear is "that's a great school and he is a great instructor" and that's why more people continue to get shafted.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 06:55 PM
Ridgeback and rottotrot, I am sorry you feel the way you do about my intention. However, you are sorely mistaken. There was no malice in my writings. If I tell a story about so and so that puts them in a good light, then I am uplifting that person. If I tell a story about so and so that puts them in a bad light, I am bashing them? So, it is not possible for a person to tell how they were wronged by another person without bashing that other person? I don't think that way, but if you do I accept it and apologize to you. Telling my side of the story is nothing more than telling people what I went through. And, if you would notice, I did not say (or imply) that any of the instructors were "terrible" or that no one should ever train with them. As a matter of fact, I have done the opposite. I have sent people to train with them when asked. Now, regarding my actions on this forum, I have never done anything here with malice intention, and for you (or anybody else for that matter) to imply that I am bashing these other instructors shows how little you know about me or my heart. Over the past four years, I have done nothing but give and give and give (within the confines of martial arts). And still, to this day, I have people bring up these old issues when I set up seminars, when I talk to people after seminars and when I speak with people over the phone. (I can tell that the issues have never died.) Well, I am growing tired of it hearing it! I've been hurt by a number of people in the past and I decided a week ago to let others hear SOME of my side of the story. There's A LOT MORE that I have not said because this information would be considered bashing, at least by those who do not know me. I have nothing to gain from this thread other than to let people know what happened to me. If some people don't believe me, or if they assign negative intentions to my writing, then that's their choice. However, I know what's in my heart and why I wrote these things. Over the past four years, I have given so much information out over the internet it's unbelieveable. I have saved much of what I've written to my hard drive and have discovered over 400 pages of answered questions on BJJ, JKD and Kali. Keep in mind, this is 400+ pages of FREE information! Also, it's 400+ pages of just my writings, this does not include people's responses to my answers. I have looked over these writing and have found very few stories where anyone could "imply" that I was bashing another instructor. If any of you have understood my writings as a bashing on other instructors, I am sorry you feel that way and I apologize to you. However, as I've stated before, that was not my intentions. If you question my intentions or still think I am full of it, well, it's to your loss. And rottotrot, if readers (which I assume includes you) "get the impression that Bjj is, just a bunch of rivalries, infighting, and bad mouthing," I am sorry you feel that way. Ridgeback, I understand you may think I was disrespecting Bolo. However, there's a lot more to the whole story than I have mentioned. I will not bring it up here because it is inappropriate. Let's all move on to something more positive!) This is thread is beginning to feel heavy. Thanks, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: rottotrot
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 08:27 PM
Roy, As I clearly stated in my post above I don't doubt your abilities or the veracity of your stories.My point is to remind other forum members that these were "your" experiences filtered through "your" perspective.The other parties may have a different take on things that this forum is unaware of. While your intention may not be to bash anyone,unfortunately many here have already made their decisions as to the character,motives and honesty of various protagonists of your story,without having any knowlegde of their perpective. Your extensive writings are indeed interesting an informative, an invaluable source of information.I don't question your motives or think you are full of it- you said that - not me. "And rottotrot, if readers (which I assume includes you) "get the impression that Bjj is, just a bunch of rivalries, infighting, and bad mouthing," I am sorry you feel that way." I don't....Perhaps you didn't read the rest of my paragraph: "That doesn't describe my experience in the real world! What I do find, is a great sense of pride , camraderie and respect at every academy I have visited. From my observations the bulk of Jiu Jitsu schools out there are filled with enthusiastic, dedicated and GOOD people that enjoy Jiu Jitsu. Schools led by hard working, honest and interested instructors.Instructors that don't have the time or inclination to criticize every little thing they disagree with, on the internet". And Roy, if you are tired of all the rumours and inaccuracies floating around about you, imagine the people you refer to in your posts!!!! And finally,Bolo,as I said on the above post, you seem intent on pointing out the bad.I have never ever seen you say any thing good about any BJJ instructor other than Joe(of course).You paint every single one of them with a broad negative brush.Who and where are these mobs of people that have been shafted?And by whom have they been shafted? You say they don't speak up?That's funny,it seems to me that the underground is crawling with people yelling "rip off" about just about everything. You definitely imply that most instructors out there are crooks.They are not! Maybe you should spend less time on the internet criticizing those you don't know and get out in the real world and see what's really going on there! Thanks for your time and response Roy.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 08:48 PM
rottotrot, I personally know many people who have been shafted. They have divulged this information to me in private and for their own personal reasons, they chose not to speak out. It is not my place to post specific information (like their names) that they told me private which does not involve me. Even in my own experiences, I have not mentioned all that has happened. For example, I got shafted in regards to a seminar with a BJJ black belt and one of my instructors told me not to talk about it in public. Out of respect for my instructor, I have not mentioned names or the details of the situation. I have spoken many positive things about instructors who deserve it. However, you seem to only want to focus on the posts in which I mention to negative things. I have spoken highly in many posts about Rey Diogo, Marco Nascimento, Joao Pierini, Orlando Saraiva, and several other BJJ instructors. I've been in BJJ for 10 years and I have seen, experienced, and heard a lot. Roy has been in BJJ even longer. How long have you been in BJJ? Maybe one day when you have been in a the game for a long time, you will see the things we have seen.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ridgeback
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 10:40 PM
Roy, I see that my post was taken in the wrong way. I know that you are not intending to bash these instructors or even to negate their good qualities. I should have said that by telling the truth about your experience, it makes these instructors look bad. This is not your fault, but simply a consequence of their own actions. The problem with many students is that they practically worship their instructors in bjj instead of being more honest about what these people are really like. I frankly think that some of your former instructors come across as petty and completely unreasonable and I like to hear stuff like that as long as its true so that I can make informed decisions about who to train with. By the way, I don't make snap judgements based on one story, but if I see a pattern in a person's behavior, then I simply steer away from them. I guarantee that if more people came forward with their negative bjj experiences it would really change the face of the art. The sooner that instructors are held accountable to their students in terms of honest business dealings, correct teaching methods and equal treatment for each type of student, the better off the art will be. As far as what you said about Bolo, I did not assume that you had malice towards him. I was trying to point out that it seemed to an outsider that you were unduly criticizing him. I don't know the whole story and that's why I am trying to point out that it just seemed a little harsh on the surface of things. By the way, I beleive I do understand where your heart is and your good intentions. That is why I don't have a problem saying something a little critical. I know that you will respond in a reasonable and fair way and it won't cause harsh feelings between us. If I didn't think you were reasonable and sincere about what you say and do then I wouldn't even bother saying anything.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 14-Aug-01 | 11:06 PM
rottotrot, You said, "As I clearly stated in my post above I don't doubt your abilities or the veracity of your stories. My point is to remind other forum members that these were "your" experiences filtered through "your" perspective." No, that is incorrect. These were my experiences as they happened! There were no exaggerations, nor was there any filtering of information (other than the few names and details I purposely left out of the stories because I did not want to drag these other people into my story. And my reasoning was simple: had I brought up their names, people would have asked, "What about them?") Let me be frank, what I have told everyone on this forum was the absolute truth. For someone to say or imply otherwise is offensive to me. I have been forthright and upfront about every subject and with every statement. I have tried to be professional about what I said and how I said it. I have tried to not make this thing personal. The fact that all of this happened along time ago means little since I keep having to deal with this subject each and every year. I wish the subject would have died long ago, but it keeps rearing its ugly head. This is the first time I have brought this to anyone's attention with all the details. It is also the last. The Gracies and the Machado brother are awesome practitioners of Jiu Jitsu, AND, they are also awesome instuctors. However, since some of them chose to label me in the past, and since I keep having to defend myself on the internet and at seminars, I felt it was time for people to hear my side of of the story. Now, to all of you, please let this negative subject die! Thanks!! Sincerely, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: prince ofarmlocks
Date: 15-Aug-01 | 12:24 AMMr. Harris and Jen, just delete any further such posts, everyone else is enjoying this thread too much to get too much negativity in it.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: William Colosimo
Date: 15-Aug-01 | 12:28 AMRoy I find your story to be eye opening and entertaining. Looking forward to reading more.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 15-Aug-01 | 06:15 AMplease post more, this is GREAT! Real life experiences with MA? JKD etc in LE? The shootwrestlers comming in? interested to hear about that. ROlling with Frank shamrock? Details? ANy more info on Paul Vunak? its impossible to get it out of anyone :P ALso anything abotu ure expereinces in the Philipines (I know u posted some but more would be great) dont feel pressured but any more would be great'
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Grappler1
Date: 15-Aug-01 | 11:08 AMThis is fantastic. Please continue Mr. Harris. I too would like to hear about Paul Vunak, Shoot wrestlers, Shamrock and anything else you would be willing to share. As for the detractors who have been negative in this thread, please leave so that this great topic can continue. Mr. Harris has always been a class act and I would hate for you to spoil this thread for the rest of us.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: vedder191
Date: 15-Aug-01 | 03:34 PMMr. Harris could you please elaborate on your experiences with Paul Vunak. How was time training with him, especially since during that time he had discovered BJJ for himself as well.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: KENWINGJITSU
Date: 15-Aug-01 | 06:34 PMridgeback & rotttrot; does this sound like someone who is intent on "bashing"???? "Rorion and Royce, I wish things would have turned out different. I wish we could have remained friends over the years. However, both of you made choices (and said things) that severely impacted my life," "I asked John if there was anything I could do or say to change his mind or his brothers and he said, "No. We've already made up our minds." It's obvious you are shocked at the possibility that Roy is telling the truth about what happened. Obviously he wasn't intending to name names till Bolo did, but I'm sure if he wanted to 'bash' he knows how to. Truth is this is nothing new or nothing that I haven't heard from other people who have been involved with and even very close to those people mentioned. As far as I have seen, most Brazilian BJJ 'experts' (thankfully not all), are so full of "you betrayed me you must leave my school-itis", that they are nothing short of caricatures of old kung-fu masters. Roy, you don't have to add anything further if you don't want to. I'm more interested in your journey anyways. Please continue.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: mat_rat
Date: 15-Aug-01 | 11:36 PMMr Harris : How about the crazy or funny ? In the year I spent training above a pool hall we had several men and women come up with some crazy propositions ! What are some of your crazy and funny moments with people who just stop in ? mat_rat
Subject: RE: INFO
From: pfsjkd
Date: 17-Aug-01 | 11:07 AMttt
Subject:
From: Roy Harris
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 12:00 PM
My journey - part eight A couple of years ago, I had the unique opportunity to go to the Philippines and train in Pilipino Martial Arts over there. My experience was intriguing to say the least. For starters, a gentleman by the name of Myles Vives invited me over there to teach a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu seminar. In exchange for my services, he offered to introduce me to a variety of different Pilipino Kali, Eskrima and Arnis masters. I agreed and was on my way to Manila. Once there, Myles first introduced me to a gentleman named Romy Macapagal. Mr. Macapagal is a senior student in Kali Ilustrisimo. What this gentleman introduced me to, as far as blade training was concerned, totally caught me off guard! I was not prepared for what I was about to receive. During my first private lesson, Mr. Macapagal told me move around and shadow box. So, I got a stick and began shadow boxing. As soon as I began moving, he asked me, "Why do you put your hand there? Why do you do that?" Of course, I didn't know what to say other than "I had been taught to move the stick that way and to place my hands in those positions." What happened next blew my mind. Mr. Macapagal told me he was going to spar with me, lightly. He handed me a padded stick and gave me a protective glove. He asked me to hit his hand and told me that he would try to hit my hand. I thought to myself, sounds fair enough to me. So, we began to spar. Mr. Macapagal hit my hands about a fifty times in three or four minutes (and he barely moved his feet). I did not hit his hand, nor could I hit any part of his body. Plus, he held a conversation with someone while he was sparring with me. Now, I know you might not think too much of that. However, in the middle of our sparring session, for about 30 seconds or so, he held a conversation with someone else! He looked at them and occasionally glanced at my hand! Then, to my amazment, he disarmed me! LIVE! Boy, talk about a wake up call! (I have been training in Filipino Martial Art since 1981, so I wasn't a beginner. And, to have someone do that to you after training so long was quite the wake up call!) Continued......... Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 12:01 PM
After that brief introduction, he began to teach me the long and short blade of Kali Ilustrisimo. What I was about to experience totally revolutionized the way I now look at blade training. For starters, after that one session, he no longer allowed me to wear protective gear when sparring. He told me that protective gear develops bad habits. Mr. Macapagal said, "If you can not protect your hand (which holds the weapon), you can not protect the rest of your body. The only way you will know for sure that you can protect your hand is to spar and perform the drills without any protection!" He also said, "Combat is simple: it's your life or his. In combat, there is no time for fancy or complicated moves. Your techniques must be simple, direct, economical and powerful!" So, for the next 20+ hours, I trained and sparred with Mr. Macapagal, using no protective gear. Now, obviously, he didn't destroy me. However, when I did not protect my hand as he had taught me, he let me know! Keep in mind that we trained with heavy steel blades that had rounded edges on them. Even though they had rounded edges on them, a person could still get cut with the edge. As a matter of fact, I saw Mr. Macapagal spar with his son (full bore) with these blades. (You should have heard the sound of those blades making contact with each other when they sparred. No, you should have heard the sound of Mr. Macapagal's blade making contact with his son's forearm, and the sound that came out of his mouth!) During one of their close quarter engagements, I saw a blade go twirling through the air and hit Mr. Macapagal in the face. He was bleeding from the cheek. He picked up the blade and continued sparring with his son. I told him he was bleeding and he said, "It's only blood!" On one particular day, I was fortunate enough to spend the entire day training with Mr. Macapagal! We trained from 8:00am until around 11:00pm at night. What a day that was!! Mr. Macapagal told me that's how he and others trained in the old days with "Tatang." He said, "In Kali Ilustrisimo, 70% of your time is spent sparring without protecive gear, and the other 30% of your time is spent perfecting your technique through repetition and drills. The drills and techniques he had shown me were simple and direct. The method of sparring he introduced to me transformed my timing and distancing! I feel fortunate that I had the chance to train with him, and, I look forward to continuing my training with him next year! Before I left Manila, he told me that "I am one of five people he has accepted as a student." He asked that I not commercialize the art. Rather, he asked that "I hold it dear to my heart!" Well, Romy, if you ever read this, I want you to know that I truly appreciate what you have given to me. It has changed my life for the better! I will always hold your teachings very close to my heart! I am proud to call you my teacher, and am even more proud to call you my friend. You have my loyalty and my respect! I look forward to reuniting with you in the near future! My first time experience in the Philippines was very positive. I was fortunate to have Myles Vives as a seminar host and tour guide. Myles introduced me to Mr. Macapagal, and well, the rest is history! I am a changed man!!! Myles, thanks for introducing me to Mr. Macapagal. Well, I gotta go teach. Later, I will write about my expereinces with Sifu Paul Vunak. Ciao for now, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 01:32 PM
cool
Subject: RE: INFO
From: s98ronin
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 04:44 PM
Great story...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: vedder191
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 05:36 PM
I cannot wait to hear about his experiences with Paul "The punisher" Vunak.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 07:59 PM
vedder me 2, this is a very mystical area for some reason LOL. I just started training Ilustrisimo and you know how I got started ROy? I was at a seminar and was workign knife and the teacher came up to me and did the same thing, lets spar lightly. I couldnt get my hand away, he kept hitting it and so damn casually. I luv it and am training it every week now, he was a personal student of Tatang to.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 08:21 PM
The kali you learned is freakin' incredible. I chuckle inside when I think about what was going through Romy's mind when he watched you first shadow box.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 12:32 AM
Is there a website where you can read more about this type of Kali? (Lemon or Roy?) thanks
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 01:46 AM
Along the lines of Sothy's question...Roy, didn't you mention that this style of kali was not really taught to non-Philipinos?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Diego De la Jolla
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 02:35 AM
wow...macapagal...they are a hard working family one became a president several decades ago and now his daughter is also the president of the philippines, i don't know what the relation is of your kali instructor Romi, but macapagals are up there... you were hanging out with the philippine elite, unless ofcourse you already knew that. -diego
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 02:59 AM
sothy, If you do a search for Kali Ilustrisimo, or Antonio Ilustrisimo, you will find a few references about it on the net. ------------------------------------------------ diego, I am not sure if Romy is related to the upper crust. He may be. However, I do not know this for sure. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: OMAC
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 05:57 AM
another great story; thanks roy. :)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 06:24 AM
Roy I would be curious to see if the style u learnt is similar to mine I am learning now from a Philipino who apparently was Tatang's last student. I am curious as to how to blend it mostly with what I already know as u have some experience in it. What do you think of Ilustrisimo's empty handed appl. as well?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: nexus
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 07:43 AM
Please keep this story going .
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Matt-le-kat
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 09:06 AM
"it's only blood!" Whoa
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 12:26 PM
LEMon, The Kali Ilustrisimo I learned was blade only (Tagpas Kali Ilustrisimo). I am not familiar with the stick or empty hand portion of Ilustrisimo. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 01:54 PM
thanks
Subject: RE: INFO
From: vedder191
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 01:59 PM
I am so anxious to hear the rest of Roy's story.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: KENWINGJITSU
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 04:26 PM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bengan
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 07:28 PM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sovann
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 07:30 PM
An instructor I correspond with feels that silat and FMA in the US is a watered down version of real Kali. He would eat this story up. Roy, do you think FMA instructors hold back technique like some BJJ instructors? Or is it a matter of not having exposure to it by not having the chance to train in the PI?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 10:24 PM
I can not say whether or not instructor's hold back or if they simply haven't been exposed to the kind of training I was fortunate enough to be shown. If I were to guess, I would say it's probably the latter. However, it's just a guess. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 11:51 PM
IMO its hard for my FMA instructor to hold back as what he does is so simple, I cant see it being any more simple or economic.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: vedder191
Date: 24-Aug-01 | 06:21 PM
I'm can someone tell me what "ttt" means? I know its a stupid question.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bruised Lee
Date: 24-Aug-01 | 06:31 PM
TTT = To The Top
Subject: RE: INFO
From: vedder191
Date: 24-Aug-01 | 08:47 PM
Thank you
Subject: RE: INFO
From: a10
Date: 24-Aug-01 | 09:02 PM
I think I saw a video series by Chris Ricketts on the Ilustrisimo method. Unique Productions
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 25-Aug-01 | 12:09 AM
Does anyone know who Chris Ricketts is? thanks for the info
Subject: Evolution
From: Angelus
Date: 25-Aug-01 | 02:33 AM
I am sorry about stepping in, but I think the observation made by others include the late Guro Sulite, was that the teaching methods of the great masters of FMA (and I suspect others in other cultures) is not systematic or programmed--any holding back would eventually be peeled back by students who eventually got to a level where instructors have taught them well enough to figure things out on their own, either through experimentation or through encounters with others from different schools.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 25-Aug-01 | 07:48 PM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 26-Aug-01 | 03:52 AM
tttttttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Grisben
Date: 26-Aug-01 | 06:12 PM
Roy, please write a book!!!! ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Stickgrappler
Date: 26-Aug-01 | 10:51 PM
Sothy, along with rey galang and antonio diego, christopher ricketts (aka topher ricketts) are some of the highest ranking instructors taught by tatang. some of them relocated to NJ, USA and are actively teaching there. check out babakan's site, i think it's www.babakan.com HTH
Subject:
From: Roy Harris
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 12:00 PM
My journey - part eight A couple of years ago, I had the unique opportunity to go to the Philippines and train in Pilipino Martial Arts over there. My experience was intriguing to say the least. For starters, a gentleman by the name of Myles Vives invited me over there to teach a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu seminar. In exchange for my services, he offered to introduce me to a variety of different Pilipino Kali, Eskrima and Arnis masters. I agreed and was on my way to Manila. Once there, Myles first introduced me to a gentleman named Romy Macapagal. Mr. Macapagal is a senior student in Kali Ilustrisimo. What this gentleman introduced me to, as far as blade training was concerned, totally caught me off guard! I was not prepared for what I was about to receive. During my first private lesson, Mr. Macapagal told me move around and shadow box. So, I got a stick and began shadow boxing. As soon as I began moving, he asked me, "Why do you put your hand there? Why do you do that?" Of course, I didn't know what to say other than "I had been taught to move the stick that way and to place my hands in those positions." What happened next blew my mind. Mr. Macapagal told me he was going to spar with me, lightly. He handed me a padded stick and gave me a protective glove. He asked me to hit his hand and told me that he would try to hit my hand. I thought to myself, sounds fair enough to me. So, we began to spar. Mr. Macapagal hit my hands about a fifty times in three or four minutes (and he barely moved his feet). I did not hit his hand, nor could I hit any part of his body. Plus, he held a conversation with someone while he was sparring with me. Now, I know you might not think too much of that. However, in the middle of our sparring session, for about 30 seconds or so, he held a conversation with someone else! He looked at them and occasionally glanced at my hand! Then, to my amazment, he disarmed me! LIVE! Boy, talk about a wake up call! (I have been training in Filipino Martial Art since 1981, so I wasn't a beginner. And, to have someone do that to you after training so long was quite the wake up call!) Continued......... Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 12:01 PM
After that brief introduction, he began to teach me the long and short blade of Kali Ilustrisimo. What I was about to experience totally revolutionized the way I now look at blade training. For starters, after that one session, he no longer allowed me to wear protective gear when sparring. He told me that protective gear develops bad habits. Mr. Macapagal said, "If you can not protect your hand (which holds the weapon), you can not protect the rest of your body. The only way you will know for sure that you can protect your hand is to spar and perform the drills without any protection!" He also said, "Combat is simple: it's your life or his. In combat, there is no time for fancy or complicated moves. Your techniques must be simple, direct, economical and powerful!" So, for the next 20+ hours, I trained and sparred with Mr. Macapagal, using no protective gear. Now, obviously, he didn't destroy me. However, when I did not protect my hand as he had taught me, he let me know! Keep in mind that we trained with heavy steel blades that had rounded edges on them. Even though they had rounded edges on them, a person could still get cut with the edge. As a matter of fact, I saw Mr. Macapagal spar with his son (full bore) with these blades. (You should have heard the sound of those blades making contact with each other when they sparred. No, you should have heard the sound of Mr. Macapagal's blade making contact with his son's forearm, and the sound that came out of his mouth!) During one of their close quarter engagements, I saw a blade go twirling through the air and hit Mr. Macapagal in the face. He was bleeding from the cheek. He picked up the blade and continued sparring with his son. I told him he was bleeding and he said, "It's only blood!" On one particular day, I was fortunate enough to spend the entire day training with Mr. Macapagal! We trained from 8:00am until around 11:00pm at night. What a day that was!! Mr. Macapagal told me that's how he and others trained in the old days with "Tatang." He said, "In Kali Ilustrisimo, 70% of your time is spent sparring without protecive gear, and the other 30% of your time is spent perfecting your technique through repetition and drills. The drills and techniques he had shown me were simple and direct. The method of sparring he introduced to me transformed my timing and distancing! I feel fortunate that I had the chance to train with him, and, I look forward to continuing my training with him next year! Before I left Manila, he told me that "I am one of five people he has accepted as a student." He asked that I not commercialize the art. Rather, he asked that "I hold it dear to my heart!" Well, Romy, if you ever read this, I want you to know that I truly appreciate what you have given to me. It has changed my life for the better! I will always hold your teachings very close to my heart! I am proud to call you my teacher, and am even more proud to call you my friend. You have my loyalty and my respect! I look forward to reuniting with you in the near future! My first time experience in the Philippines was very positive. I was fortunate to have Myles Vives as a seminar host and tour guide. Myles introduced me to Mr. Macapagal, and well, the rest is history! I am a changed man!!! Myles, thanks for introducing me to Mr. Macapagal. Well, I gotta go teach. Later, I will write about my expereinces with Sifu Paul Vunak. Ciao for now, Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 01:32 PM
cool
Subject: RE: INFO
From: s98ronin
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 04:44 PM
Great story...
Subject: RE: INFO
From: vedder191
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 05:36 PM
I cannot wait to hear about his experiences with Paul "The punisher" Vunak.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 07:59 PM
vedder me 2, this is a very mystical area for some reason LOL. I just started training Ilustrisimo and you know how I got started ROy? I was at a seminar and was workign knife and the teacher came up to me and did the same thing, lets spar lightly. I couldnt get my hand away, he kept hitting it and so damn casually. I luv it and am training it every week now, he was a personal student of Tatang to.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 22-Aug-01 | 08:21 PM
The kali you learned is freakin' incredible. I chuckle inside when I think about what was going through Romy's mind when he watched you first shadow box.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 12:32 AM
Is there a website where you can read more about this type of Kali? (Lemon or Roy?) thanks
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bolo
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 01:46 AM
Along the lines of Sothy's question...Roy, didn't you mention that this style of kali was not really taught to non-Philipinos?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Diego De la Jolla
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 02:35 AM
wow...macapagal...they are a hard working family one became a president several decades ago and now his daughter is also the president of the philippines, i don't know what the relation is of your kali instructor Romi, but macapagals are up there... you were hanging out with the philippine elite, unless ofcourse you already knew that. -diego
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 02:59 AM
sothy, If you do a search for Kali Ilustrisimo, or Antonio Ilustrisimo, you will find a few references about it on the net. ------------------------------------------------ diego, I am not sure if Romy is related to the upper crust. He may be. However, I do not know this for sure. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: OMAC
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 05:57 AM
another great story; thanks roy. :)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 06:24 AM
Roy I would be curious to see if the style u learnt is similar to mine I am learning now from a Philipino who apparently was Tatang's last student. I am curious as to how to blend it mostly with what I already know as u have some experience in it. What do you think of Ilustrisimo's empty handed appl. as well?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: nexus
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 07:43 AM
Please keep this story going .
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Matt-le-kat
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 09:06 AM
"it's only blood!" Whoa
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 12:26 PM
LEMon, The Kali Ilustrisimo I learned was blade only (Tagpas Kali Ilustrisimo). I am not familiar with the stick or empty hand portion of Ilustrisimo. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 01:54 PM
thanks
Subject: RE: INFO
From: vedder191
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 01:59 PM
I am so anxious to hear the rest of Roy's story.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: KENWINGJITSU
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 04:26 PM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bengan
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 07:28 PM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sovann
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 07:30 PM
An instructor I correspond with feels that silat and FMA in the US is a watered down version of real Kali. He would eat this story up. Roy, do you think FMA instructors hold back technique like some BJJ instructors? Or is it a matter of not having exposure to it by not having the chance to train in the PI?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Roy Harris
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 10:24 PM
I can not say whether or not instructor's hold back or if they simply haven't been exposed to the kind of training I was fortunate enough to be shown. If I were to guess, I would say it's probably the latter. However, it's just a guess. Roy Harris
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 23-Aug-01 | 11:51 PM
IMO its hard for my FMA instructor to hold back as what he does is so simple, I cant see it being any more simple or economic.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: vedder191
Date: 24-Aug-01 | 06:21 PM
I'm can someone tell me what "ttt" means? I know its a stupid question.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Bruised Lee
Date: 24-Aug-01 | 06:31 PM
TTT = To The Top
Subject: RE: INFO
From: vedder191
Date: 24-Aug-01 | 08:47 PM
Thank you
Subject: RE: INFO
From: a10
Date: 24-Aug-01 | 09:02 PM
I think I saw a video series by Chris Ricketts on the Ilustrisimo method. Unique Productions
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sothy
Date: 25-Aug-01 | 12:09 AM
Does anyone know who Chris Ricketts is? thanks for the info
Subject: Evolution
From: Angelus
Date: 25-Aug-01 | 02:33 AM
I am sorry about stepping in, but I think the observation made by others include the late Guro Sulite, was that the teaching methods of the great masters of FMA (and I suspect others in other cultures) is not systematic or programmed--any holding back would eventually be peeled back by students who eventually got to a level where instructors have taught them well enough to figure things out on their own, either through experimentation or through encounters with others from different schools.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 25-Aug-01 | 07:48 PM
ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: LEMon
Date: 26-Aug-01 | 03:52 AM
tttttttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Grisben
Date: 26-Aug-01 | 06:12 PM
Roy, please write a book!!!! ttt
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Stickgrappler
Date: 26-Aug-01 | 10:51 PM
Sothy, along with rey galang and antonio diego, christopher ricketts (aka topher ricketts) are some of the highest ranking instructors taught by tatang. some of them relocated to NJ, USA and are actively teaching there. check out bakbakan's site, i think it's www.bakbakan.com HTH
Posted to the Underground forum's Q&A: BJJ.
NOTE: Posted as-of Dec 28, 2001 on Nov 22, 2013 to mirror my old archives which is gone now - archive.org snapshot: http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/ug/roymyj.html. Pageviews at the time of porting from old site to here was 12,911.
