Date: 17-Feb-02 | 09:38 AM
I think people get confused about these two words, sumbrada and hubud. People think that they are specific energy drills. But really, they are a specific distance or range, and these exercises are taught to get people familiar with training in that range.
Hubud for example, is that range sandwiched between boxing or the extended jab, cross and clinching where the chests are touching. You learn a drill to show you where that range exists. Once you feel the range you adapt it into your live sparring. The same goes for Sumbrada or any of the other so called energy drills.
The drill is a stepping stone like focus mitt drills are to boxing. I think the problem lies in how the drills are done and the thought that if you just do the drills you will become a better fighter. I also believe people spend way to much time on drilling.
The drills do have other benefits but making you a better fighter is not one of them, unless you expand your approach and realize that it's the range and the understanding of it and not a pre programmed drill that will improve your fighting. J.M.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Basketball Jones
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 03:13 PM
"The drill is a stepping stone like focus mitt drills are to boxing. I think the problem lies in how the drills are done and the thought that if you just do the drills you will become a better fighter."
BINGO JOE!
But here is the real kicker....I have been to several boxing gyms and kickboxing gyms and muay thai gyms, were the bulk of the people training ONLY do bag work, focus mitts, thai pads etc....never any sparring or even limited sparring. (ie..partner can use any lead leg kick, you can defend anyway you want, return any 3 attack combo)
So people train on focus mitts for MONTHS if not YEARS and believe they have knowledge of the art when in fact they have only done a small portion of it.
But because we see boxing and kickboxing everyday on TV and such, we become conditioned to accept ANY type of boxing training as being effective. Whereas, we apply a great deal of criticism to kali drills even though they are identical in concept to boxing drills.
that is, no one would ever criticize this:
You slip a jab, you slip a cross, you bob and weave a hook and return hook cross hook repeat for three minute rounds.
NOW..do this:
roof block,inside deflection, shield...repeat for three minutes.
Now both are valuable drills which lay a building block to sparring, but if your try to jump from drills to a real fight without any time spent sparring....good luck
Subject: critical thinking
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 04:10 PM
Here is the major problem with your analogy there BasketBall Jones, your first example works agaist a resisting opponent. Your second will not. In fact, it is actally teaching you bad habits if you ever attempt to use anything that looks remotely like it against someone swinging a stick with bad intentions.
Fundemental difference, and the reason why you need to uderstand Alivenss before you can ever understand how to drill.
If a move looks completely, and totally different when you spar, and apply it against a resisting opponent, then when you "drill" it. (ie: Sombrada/Hubud, etc), then you are drilling wrong, wasting time, and developing bad habits.
I know Burton, years ago, would place a helmet on someones head, and swing a stick at them at even 40-50% speed and power, while asking them to execute an "inside defelction" using the checking hand,(what you are typically drilling over and over again in Sombrada)As the stick swept through their "inside deflection" and crashed into thier head over an over, he would explain how that move, done at that range, in that way, will get you hurt. Some people still didn't get it. Try it yourself, don't take mine, or anyone else's word for it.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Mosley
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 04:36 PM
Been there, done that, massaged the knot on my head and progressed forward...
Subject: way to go
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 04:44 PM
Way to go Mosley.
I find it ironic that no JKD Instructor I know of would teach a student to throw reverse punches from hands on their hips, and Karate style blocks, as a means to "introduce" a student to boxing range. And then when it comes to time to spar, teach them boxing.
But they do that exact thing with the filipino arts of stick and knife fighting. It's a classical mess.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ern-Dpg
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 07:37 PM
I'm not trying to be an ass, but what about the ones of us out there who can pull it off [inside deflection].
Subject: if you can
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 07:50 PM
Well erndog, if your experience show you can do an inside deflection, using the checking hand, (as is usually done in sombrada) off of a hard forehand strike. . .then by all means go for it.
But I have yet to ever see anyone do this and not take the shot to the head, and neither has Burton. So I would have to see it to believe it, on tape, or in person. This is not to say that a hard forehand shot cannot be blocked, it's just that when it is done correctly (that is in a form most people can pull off in sparring) it looks nothing like the kind executed in Abecidario, or Sombrada drills.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Basketball Jones
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 07:56 PM
anybody know the origins of where the drills came from? What led to their development?
incidently...I just read that US troops are going back into the Muslim phillipines. should be interesting
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Han
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 07:59 PM
Is an inside deflection like a pak sao with a stick?
Subject: interesting side note
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:05 PM
Interesting side note. I don't think Dan Inosanto recieves as much credit as he is due for bringing the Filipino Martial Arts to prominence in the USA.
Other then a select few, who would be doing FMA if not for Mr Inosanto?
One good example is the fact that it was he and Lucky Lucay Lucay, the late Ted's father, that created Hubud.
Nearly every 'modern' sytem of FMA claim Hubud as their own. But it was Mr. Inosanto himself that put that drill together. From there it spread.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ern-Dpg
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:24 PM
I have been known to cheat just a little by backing up the deflection with the forearm. :p
I always thought there would never be a time when anyone could grab the opp.'s stick of an inside deflection, until I did it in sparring. If memory serves me correctly I followed with a vine disarm. Again though, I think I used the forearm to fortify my deflection.
Subject: Aha
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:29 PM
Aha, Ern-Dpg,
I knew it. You've taught yourself from experience ernDpg and thats what it is all about.
I do a similiar thing, but the position of the head, footwork, hand, etc, is very different then what you begin to do if you repeat the pattern of Sombrada.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ern-Dpg
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:33 PM
True, but then again would I have known the "essense" of the movement with/without the drill? Would I have had the muscle memory or coordination with/without the drill?
Personally, I don't think so.
Subject: incorrect
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:41 PM
That's a common, but silly statement.
What would you say if I threw a right cross in sparring, after being taught reverse punches and Karate blocks. And then when it was pointed out to me that my cross didn't look anything like my reverse punches and karate blocks I stated,
"True, but then again would I have known the "essense" of the movement with/without the drill? Would I have had the muscle memory or coordination with/without the drill? Personally, I don't think so."
That just makes no sense.
How about teaching people the way to block a forehand that works in 'realtime', from day one, using progresive resistence? What a concept.
Which, by the way is exactly what you can see for yourself on Burton Richardsons SBG tapes.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:45 PM
"he would explain how that move, done at that range, in that way, will get you hurt."
This is the crucial statement. The technique has to be tweaked a little just as much as the majority of BJJ has to be tweaked when there are strikes involved, or when there is no gi, or just as boxing has to be tweaked when kicks are allowed at long range and knees are allowed in close. Yet, these arts somehow have become absolved of any criticisms and placed on the "must have" list.
Just to use the inside deflection with a checking hand as an example, it involves timing and an aggressive attitude more than anything else. Just as a roof block/snake disarm has to be timed to crash in, so does the inside deflection with a checking hand. The checking hand will jam up the strike at the hand instead of continuing on to the snake disarm.
Training changes everything, how many people realize that there are seven stages of training in a drill like the contra sumbrada? Most never train past the first one or two and then criticize the drill.
Most people do not realize that the way they practice a drill like sumbrada is just the introductory stage to get the coordination and reflexes built. They just never take it any further.
Subject: experience
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:49 PM
I agree most people don't take their training far enough. If they did these drills would look vastly different.
Your qoute JKD Fighter:
"Just as a roof block/snake disarm has to be timed to crash in, so does the inside deflection with a checking hand. The checking hand will jam up the strike at the hand."
Try it yourself, the you will know. I have yet to see anyone use a checking hand to "jam up" their opponents swinging hand. It's simply not an effective move. But again, try it.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:49 PM
smartmonkey,
In Erndpg's defense, he is my student and has been trained properly, with resistance, timing, movement, etc. He just sometimes forgets that he is spoiled and that what he gets is not like everyone else. His understanding and definition of sumbrada is a little different than most. Take his statements in that context.
Subject: JKD Fighter
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:52 PM
JKD Fighter,
I apreciate this statement very much!
"he is my student and has been trained properly, with resistance, timing, movement, etc. He just sometimes forgets that he is spoiled and that what he gets is not like everyone else."
I guessed that when he said he had made some a block off of a forehand work. My only questions is, Why is what he gets not like evryone else? Do you mean you teach some of your students differently? Or you that your school does it differently then most?
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Basketball Jones
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:53 PM
This sort of reminds me of bodybuilding. I have the Weider Book on my shelf here and it is loaded with different drills, methods, ideologies and training regimines designed by all the famous body builders....although the book points out that what works for one bodybuilder..even a champion, may not work for you. (It goes on to point out Arnold used to use the SAME routine week in and week out, but Lou ferrigno had to change routines almost weekly as his progress grew stale.)
I guess any athletic endeavor is not different
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 08:56 PM
Our school is different than most. Definitely.
As far as the inside deflection goes, we do make it work. We have trained it until it is comfortable and natural. Not trying to argue, just explain. If the roofblock can be effective with a snake disarm then so can the inside deflection with the snake disarm. If the snake disarm can be applied, then so can the checking hand. It's just a matter of different hand placement.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 09:00 PM
Again, the "check" isn't quite as pretty as it is in the intial drilling.
Subject: BBJones
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 09:03 PM
Hi BBJones,
Yes and no. Your analogy is flawed in one key area. Bodybuilding is not a performance based sport. In performance based sports such as Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, etc, the root movements taught are generally the same. You will learn the same double leg at most Schools. The difference of course, is how the move is set up. This is the 'style' vs 'delivery systems' conversation that we have had before on this forum.
In regards bodybuilding, one thing that makes me angry about those magazines is that none of the 'bodybuilders' listed, I refuse to use the word 'athlete' for a bodybuilder, is natural. Every single one, from Lou the hulk, to Arnold, to all the modern guys, take HUGE amounts of steroids. And now HGH and insulin. Those routines you see listed in Muscle and fitness, etc, are designed for a body on large amounts of anabolic drugs. They will put you in a state of over training VERY quickly if you are a natural athlete. I wish they would just state that for the younger people who make the mistake of following those routines.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: JKD Fighter
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 09:06 PM
I'd love to see a tape of that move in actual execution. If you ever get a chance please shoot me a copy.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 09:08 PM
Be glad to do it.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 09:11 PM
Also, I am in complete agreement with your statements about bodybuilding. They mislead people into thinking that the routines are designed for the average Joe and that by doing the routines and the advertisers supplements you will eventually possess their bodies.
Very misleading for the uneducated.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Basketball Jones
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 09:16 PM
Matt,
true...Poor Mike Menzner (sp) just passed away so prematurely
Subject: RE: INFO
From: 4 Ranges
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 09:52 PM
Here's my two cents:
I've disagreed with Matt on several occassions on a couple of issues, but this is one where I have to agree with him. If you want to be good at stick sparring....you have to SPAR! That's not just my opinion, but the opinion of one of my escrima colleagues, who placed at the int'l wekaf tournament a few years ago. Of course it's different for everyone, but I've found, for me, to improve at stick sparring, you have to hit someone full force, while someone is trying to hit you back at full force.
But, I wouldn't completely rule out drills either. In my opinion, they're great for beginners, guys who have NEVER handled a filipino stick before. It gives them the sense of fluidity and flow that is required in this art. Plus, it teaches the basic mechanics of the art in a semi-alive manner, without risk of injury. Same goes for hubud.
However, I think it can only take you so far (as with most drills). Once you hit a certain level, and you've already developed the attributes you need from the drills...then, as good 'ole Bruce Lee once said "why take the boat on your back, once you are on shore?"
Sumbrada and hubud are great drills. But if you want to be really, really proficient at stick sparring, the best thing you can do is pull-aside a classmate, put a rattan stick in his hand, and say "gear up."
Subject: nicely said.
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 10:10 PM
Four Ranges, Many people enjoy these drills, and I think that is fine.
I do however feel it is important to let people know there is a whole different series of drills that are safe, Alive, and apply directly to stick fighting.
These drills are 100% Alive. They can be taught to beginers from the moment they touch a stick, and will prepare them to actually use that weapon. Plus they can, and always should be, fun.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 10:15 PM
4 Ranges,
With that analogy an NFL player never needs to do any sort of sport specific drilling or skill specific drilling. All he needs to do is play the game. Just scrimmage, scrimmage, scrimmage. Right?
A pro boxer never needs to drill a certain reaction to a given stimulus? Maybe something he needs to sharpen, he should just spar and hope that he will develop the skill?
Sport trainers know that the drills are always needed. Either remedial for a skill that has dulled, raise the current level of skill for a higher level of gameplay, or to develop a new skill out of the drills to deal with a new problem during gameplay.
The problem lies in the fact, though, that most peoples idea of drilling is still in the gradeschool level as I alluded to in my earlier posting. There is much room for development in the drilling areas and there needs to be more of a balance between drilling and "scrimmage".
In short, the smart trainer knows that his athletes never get beyond drilling.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Joe Maffei
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 10:30 PM
Boy, everyone is business tonight.
Hi guys. As I stated earlier, I believe that understanding the range is what is important and what can happen in that range. Hubud, Sumbrada ect.
Matt is right he said.
"If a move looks completely, and totally different when you spar, and apply it against a resisting opponent, then when you "drill" it. (ie: Sombrada/Hubud, etc), then you are drilling wrong, wasting time, and developing bad habits. "
I agree. But there are moves in Sumbrada that look completely the same when apply against a resisting opponent. The attacking angles. 1, 2, 3, ect. These are the same. The problem lies in the defense.
Two things naturally happen in this range.
1.You crash to smother the strike.
2. You retreat to escape the strike.
This is what you see when sparring. But if you are trying to develop angle recognition Subrada is ok. But limited and over trained. As I stated earlier.
The drills do have other benefits but making you a better fighter is not one of them, unless you expand your approach and realize that it's the range and the understanding of it and not a pre programmed drill that will improve your fighting.
Expand your approach. Now that you can recognize and differentiate various angles calmly without panic. Train going from long range to clinch. Or Vise, versa without getting your head taken off. This is what you see when fighting full contact stick. Plus ground fighting. I started training this way back in the early PFS days. When Mark Denny, Ballif and the others were involved. (Now the dog brothers). This is why people get so hung up. They just have to spar to relize the truth. Simple. J.M.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: fiddle245
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 10:30 PM
Hey Matt, Where can we find these alive stickfighting drills if we cannot train at the SBG? Are some in Burton Richardson's tape sets? Where else can we find some in the tapes of non SBG affiliated guys?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: gentle gene
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 10:35 PM
Greetings.
Hoping not to side track the conversation.
Hubbud (sp) has helped me alot in grappling (BJJ) I dont know that I have or have not used the specific movements but the sensitivity gained makes it ridiculously hard for people going for gi chokes to get one...also it helps me pass their arm over for a variety of techniques. I was shown hubbud by a man named Gordon Potter. I assume it is a very basic version because we dont train together often. In my class we occasionally even do hubbud with our legs just to work dexterity. Do you guys find that as attribute drills...for gaining tactile sensitivity or dexterity these drills are worth while?
Gene
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sovann
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 10:36 PM
Are these "Alive" drills similar to the "Laban Laro (sp)" drills from Lameco?
Subject: JKD Fighter
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 10:45 PM
JKDFighter
Here is what I percieve to be the problem in your reasoning.
Yes, boxers and football teams "drill". But, the drills they do apply directly to the game. A boxer is never going to work reverse punches on a heavybag, and then box in the ring. That makes no sense, and would be counter productive. He will work punches on the bag as he does in sparring. A football team is not going to practice working a pass in a way they would never do in an actual game. Any NFL Coach that taught that way would be fired on the spot for negligence. Again, not only a waste of time, it's counter productive.
Now the next thing I always hear is, "Yes but boxers skip rope, that doesn't apply directly to sparring. Football players jump tires, what about that?"
The answer is simply that those are CONDITIONING drills. and should never be confused with activity specific training.
Lifting weights, using a stepmaster, skipping rope, etc, these all fall under the catagory of conditioning.
yes, it is true that hitting a bag is good for conditioing as well, but since you are training punches on that bag, it becomes VERY important that you punch just as you would in sparring. Otherwise you are actually hurting your own progress and aquiring bad habits that will take precious time to change in sparring. Again, it makes NO sense. It's just not logical.
Again, using your example of a boxer. Can you imagine walking into a boxing Gym and having a coach tell you, "Ok, we are gonna do a drill, when the guy throws a jab, I want you to reach out and execute a block, and then a looping right haymaker to the head to follow up".
And then you spar and say "Coach, none of this is working like we drilled?"
And he says, "here, for fighting we do 'this' (shows you something completely different). Those drills are just to "familiarize" you with the range, and moves of boxing."
I think we would all immeadiatly find another Gym!
If more "Martial Artsits" thought and trained like athletes, and more "sifus" thought and taught like Coaches, then a whole new world of truth would open up wide for them.
And it's a nice refreshing world.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: check Burts tapes
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 10:47 PM
Sovaan, ask Robert, he could show you all of them in five minutes if he so chooses. So could Gregy.
Yes, all the drills are on Burts tapes. They are a great series.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ern-Dpg
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 11:18 PM
I once had a college baseball coach who kept me after a game for two hours. He spent that time hitting full speed ground balls at me because I had made an error in the game. The grounders came at me just as they would in the game, hard and fast. You would think I would have been able to correct my mistakes/flaws in my technique but I didn't. I had nothing but negative results. No time to think about what I was doing wrong, and no time to analyze the motion/movement. In practice two days later 5 or 6 of my teammates got in a circle and swatted a ball on the ground back and forth trying to get it through the other guys legs. It hardly resembled anything that I would do in a game. After we were done one of my teammates told me I was holding my non-glove hand a little high at the beginning of the drill but by end of the drill I had both hands low to the ground where they should have been all along. My fielding technique improved and so did my performance in the upcoming games.
Subject: good example
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 11:25 PM
Good example Ern-Dpg!
That's a simple principle known as 'progressive' resistence. There is no need to hit the grounders at a super fast speed.
A good rule of thumb is to use a speed where you miss about 30% of the time, when you get to 10% you increase speed. Thats how all "drilling" should be done, using the exact movements that would would use in a game.
People mistakenly think that you need these dead pattern drills because if you don't the grounders come to hard and fast to learn. You're example is a beautiful one of why this is also a lame excuse for dead pattern training. Just use progressive resistence!
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 11:29 PM
I totally agree that if the drilling is not directly or indirectly beneficial that it should be thrown out. IF IF IF IF sumbrada(just as an example)is trained PROPERLY it is directly and indirectly functional.
To use the example of running tires and skipping rope is very good. Yes, it is conditioning, but by your own reasoning they could do many other types of exercises to condition. Why skip rope or run tires? Because it is directly and indirectly functional. Skipping rope is not just conditioning, it also develops a light footedness in footwork. Running tires also trains the neuromuscular system for agility. There is also a special string apparatus that can be bought for the same purpose from sport training specialty companies that many sports use for agility training. So, these exercises are more than just conditioning.
I understand why you are comparing sumbrada to the hip-loaded reverse punches of Karate. Believe me, I'm with you. The way most people practice and demonstrate sumbrada is a pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship and false fighting ability that has little to do with reality. However, this is just the first stage, they just rarely move on or even realize that there is more. That first stage is like learning the alphabet or spelling your first words. They are really good at reciting the alphabet, they just can't write the good ol' American novel!
Sumbrada is just there to ingrain the instant recognition of lines of motion and the proper response. That "proper" response will vary on the system and the teacher, so it can be whatever you like to ingrain into the neuromuscular system. The drill will then begin to add in more variables such as multiple attacks and counters rather than just one-for-one. It will also add live hand defense, counter attack and attack. You will also add grappling techniques as you break into that range. You will also add breaking in and out of sumbrada range as Joe suggested, this is called Entrada Y Retierada. You will eventually have no drill at all. The attack and counter attack sequences will be gone. It will be extremely chaotic with complete resistance from both sides. In short, "alive". There will only be the fight. Sparring is then very natural for the student.
This training method helps to ingrain very specific reactions that will be very hard to get enough repitition in without drilling. You will never fight like the basic sumbrada drill, but you will use the reactions developed in that drill.
I played football, basketball and I wrestled in high school and I remember a lot of drills that did not look like a real game. However, those drills were used for developing a certain reaction, skill or attribute. Those drills, that at the time I thought were stupid, were just a snapshot of a certain point in the game or match. Just as is sumbrada.
Sumbrada is just a training method. It's a very good one, at that, when used properly. I want to stress PROPERLY. So, I think that we are on the same page, we are just meaning different things when we use the term "sumbrada".
Subject: Not Logical
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 11:40 PM
Still makes no sense.
Listen to what you said:
"I understand why you are comparing sumbrada to the hip-loaded reverse punches of Karate. Believe me, I'm with you. The way most people practice and demonstrate sumbrada is a pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship and false fighting ability that has little to do with reality. However, this is just the first stage, they just rarely move on or even realize that there is more."
Why would a (pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship and false fighting ability)*your words. . .be the first step in your curriculum? It just makes zero sense. And, if that is not your first step, and the drill looks nothing like a (pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship and false fighting ability)* again your words. . .then why are we having this conversation? You are obviously not teaching Sombrada as it is known to be at most schools, at all.
My guess is that you ARE still teaching this (pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship and false fighting ability) to your begining students and then moving them on to more functional things. Your trying to rationalize why. And that's a great question. . .why?
How about having someone swing a soft stick at someone elase head, and have them practice blocking a forehand using progressive resistence, such as ErnDpg's grounder analogy?
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ern-Dpg
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 11:45 PM
progressive resistance would have been this...
My coach would have started out with light ground balls at 1/2 the normal distance.
Then light ground balls at full distance.
Then 50-60% ground balls at full distance.
Then 70-80% ground balls at full distance.
Then all out at full distance.
The drill we did had nothing to do with progressive resistance. We were in a circle where our heads were two feet from the guy in from of you. It didn't come close to recreating anything that looked like a real-time ground ball that I would see in a game. Trying to swat a ball with two hands between 5/6 guys legs in all diffrent directions hardly comes close. Yet is inadvertantly helped me to "polish" my technique and find out what I had been doing wrong.
I'm all for progressive resistance. We live it at my school. But here's a good question. Would I have been able to correct my mistake after the game using progressive resistance? Very probable. Did I correct my mistake using a non-"alive" drill? Yes.
Subject: distance
From: smartmonkey
Date: 17-Feb-02 | 11:51 PM
You don't understand my definition of Aliveness. Aliveness is timing, energy, and motion. Apllied to moves that relate directly to goal you are trying to achieve.
What you did, using the definition you have above, was Alive.
Because you where just two feet from each other doesn't make the fact that you where rolling grounders at each other and catching them not 'Alive'. This is in reality, progressive resistence. You could start one foot from each other and work back. It doesn't make a difference.
Now if someone walked over and placed the ball in your glove for you. . .that would be something else all together. As dead as can be. Which is essentially what someone does when they swing an angle #1 at you, and stop at mid point so you can execute your angle #1 followed with quick release disarm #22.
-Matt Thornton www.SendPaulSharpJunkMail.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 12:02 AM
Well, you didn't read all of Ern-dpg's post. What he was trying to say was that his coach hitting the ball to him did nothing to improve his skill. He then stated how the drill that looked nothing like the game ended up improving his skill.
Psychologists have found that any given skill takes 1000-2000 reps to make it a truly ingrained skill. I can take a pattern of movements and have them develop that skill much quicker. Why teach a boxer combinations? Because those combos have to be ingrained. A boxer is trained to react pretty specifically to certain attacks. He is also trained to react to counters, right? Same thing.
I don't teach sumbrada to the basic students very often. I do feed simple lines of motion which they train to defend and then counter. This is called abcedario. This eventually is done very hard, fast and random. Then isolated sparring and free sparring.
Sumbrado is a more advanced drilling process. It's to develop the reaction of what happens when I counter their counter. If they haven't trained for it they are limited in their reactions.Yes, I could very slowly swing a stick at my student, have them block and counter, I then slowly counter, they then slowly counter, but the drills are faster.
Anyway, this can go on and on I guess. I know what I do works. It develops good fighters with good reactions for me. I'm just trying to better explain for the benefit of others what sumbrada training really is when done right. Sifu Bruce, in all of his insight, still used drilling of different types to improve himself and others. He stopped teaching chi sao to others because of the complexity, yet he still did it himself with his more advanced people.
Subject: I understand
From: smartmonkey
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 12:29 AM
JKDFighter,
What you don't understand about me, is that I DO understand completley everything you are saying. I just completely disagree with your logic.
I am extremely used to arguing against it because the points you are attempting to make are what every JKDC Instructor, or traditional Martial Artist, use, and have used to defend their dead patterns.
People like Burt have so many variations of these types of drills they could make your head spin. And yet, by his own admission he got his a$% kicked the first time he ever attempted to use ANY of it at full speed. To his credit, and charecter, he changed what he does, and teaches. But I realize fully how scary that can be for someone who has aquired an attachment to these dead patterns.
Think about how hard that must have been for Burt? He was known worldwide, not just as a JKD/FMA Full Instructor, but also as someone who was incredibly well versed in the drills you are trying to describe. I applaud Burt for his courage and honesty in having the balls to change what he teaches and does.
As far as Ern's analogy, I read it all, and understand it all. He picked up a grounder they way you would in a game. That is, he dropped his glove to the grass, with his legs spread, and let it roll in. (NO crude comments here Singer/Sharp) The fact that he did that at a distance or environment that was not like a 'game' does not mean it was not sport specific. And it is nothing like Sombrada or even Abecidario. . .if it where Ern and his fellow ball players would have been walking back and forth placing the ball in each others mitts.
The logic of your thinking is something I am VERY familiar with. It's why I always repeat myself about Aliveness. It's why the SBG is what it is.
Again, I implore you to just think about what you saying, in one breath you state:
"The way most people practice and demonstrate sumbrada is a pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship and false fighting ability that has little to do with reality. However, this is just the first stage"
"HOWEVER, THIS IS THE FIRST STAGE"???
One hell of a first stage to pass on to poeple who may think what you are teaching them is supposed to work. Then you state:
"I don't teach sumbrada to the basic students very often."
Considering your first statement I guess thats good to know.
You are also in good company 90% of all JKDC schools I have seen and heard of teach Sombrada as a fundemental part of their curriculum. How could they all be wrong? After all we know many more people teach traditional Kung Fu, Karate, etc, and look how effective those Arts are! The crowds are always right I guess.
If you have to try that hard to justify a training method you are teaching then you are wasting time.
Again, I don't know you at all. Having not seen your classes I am not qualified to comment on you specificly. In these posts I am only going off of what you yourself have said. So don't take this personally. It's not that important.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: AWSolis
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 12:36 AM
"People like Burt have so many variations of these types of drills they could make your head spin. And yet, by his own admission he got his a$% kicked the first time he ever attempted to use ANY of it at full speed. To his credit, and charecter, he changed what he does, and teaches. But I realize fully how scary that can be for someone who has aquired an attachment to these dead patterns.
Think about how hard that must have been for Burt? He was known worldwide, not just as a JKD/FMA Full Instructor, but also as someone who was incredibly well versed in the drills you are trying to describe. I applaud Burt for his courage and honesty in having the balls to change what he teaches and does. "
edited! Sitting on my hands trying to be a good boy :)
WOOF!
Alvis
www.solismartialarts.com
Subject: Hey Alvis,
From: smartmonkey
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 12:41 AM
Hey Alvis,
I know you, I like you. But your constant references to Burt reflect worse on you then they do him. I realize you have personal issues with him. But those are best left between Burt and yourself. Lets talk tarining instead.
Glad you edited that post.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: BreakUnose
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 04:02 AM
Hi guys,
I've done my share of "energy" drill training. I was pretty good at it too. I taught it. I loved it. It was like being in one of those martial arts movies I used to watch as a kid(ok, so maybe I still watch them). I don't practice it any more. I won't teach it to anyone interested in learning to defend themselves. The first problem I encountered was that although the angles being used were the same as those in real fights, the "energy" was not. So, then I thought, "Ok, we'll have to go harder". That changed thing a little. The problem was that no matter how many random angles, eye boinks, level changes, half beats, low line kicks, etc. were inserted, it still didn't translate well into real time sparring/fighting. It seemed that the "energy" being used in sumbrada type training is false. It is not the same as a fight. There seems to be too much focus on fighting in sumbrada range. This seems silly. 1) This range is crossed very quickly 2)This is a range you don't want to be in.
Everyone knows that mid-range is "crisis time". There is no counter for counter in mid range. If there is, you guys aren't trying hard enough to hit each other. I know that some of the techniques used in sumbrada can be tweeked to be used in real time. This info is usless unless real time is how you train. If there is tickety tackety mid range going on, the footwork and pressure have gone out the window.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: BreakUnose
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 04:11 AM
cont.
I feel that the focus should be on crossing through or escaping sumbrada range rather than fighting there. Nowadays, things are much more streamlined with regards to how I approach mid range training. We learn the angles, learn a defense/counter on a particular angle/strategy, then isolate the technique in sparring, then integrate it into the rest of the game. Kinda like jits(but what do they know about training fighters?). I still get to play sumbrada now and then. I'm going to be in a Sonny Chiba style ghetto martial arts movie that a film student friend is doing. Angle1/roof block...angle1/inside deflection...head butt....hip toss...tear off bad guys genitals...SNEER!
Jerry Wetzel
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Chapman
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 06:29 AM
What is it with people comparing sumbrada with "Patty Cake"? I LOVE PATTY CAKE! People seem to talk about it like its a bad thing, maybe I should keep the "Hop Scotch" thing to myself then...
Personally, I like Sumbrada as well. When I show it, from day one it is taught with movement and zoning. I find that different instructors will use Sumbrada for different reasons, I find that it helps a lot with zoning which is why I still do it and show it. I've seen people use half-beat hitting in there, switch angles, and do some pretty fancy things, but they were standing still the entire time.
The main reason that I like Sumbrada is that it is fun to do, everyone loves it. Kickboxing drills, clinch drills, ground fighting drills, full out sparring is nice to do and very important but remember that 90% of the students that train do it for recreational purposes, doing sumbrada is a nice change for them every once in a while. Also, people seem to want to learn it...just like lock flows, you tell them and show them that trying to wrist lock someone while they are throwing a furey of punches at their head is next to impossible to do but they still want to see it.
I remember at Megaton Diaz's last seminar, he had us play "Hot Potato" with a 20 pound medicine ball and "Tag" as our warm-up. It was a hellava lot more fun than Marcus Soares with his half an hour pushup/situp/squat/lunge till you puke warm up.
I agree with Matt in that personally, I have not found it to be really applicable to my stick fighting game but like I said, I don't do it for stick fighting. But there are many instructors that do feel it is beneficial and its a lot of fun to do.
Naked BJJ is only fun when there is a rediculous amount of more women to men ratio. So I guess I'm going to have to make due with Sumbrada and Sinawalli for the time being.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: AWSolis
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 09:08 AM
Matt,
I know you, and I like you too.....I agree usually with 90% of everything that you say, the other 10% usually goes over my head :)
........edited..... Matt, I respect what SBG does and what it stands for. I also respect you. Your crediblity is solid and so is mine....everyone who knows me in the martial arts world, knows what and how Burton did what he did to me. And its something that I will ever forgive or forget. And I would not want to see anyone get caught in that web like I did.
You make a stick fighting tape Matt, I will be one of the first to buy it! The research that SBG has done to make all areas of training come alive makes this more credible than anything else. I have told you before that the concepts and principles you have shown on your tapes improved my personal grappling game significantly...and I owe you a world of thanks for introducing me to Randy Couture.
Woof!
Alvis
www.solismartialarts.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Mosley
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 09:13 AM
I come from a JKDC background. I don't train sumbrada anymore. Being a teacher made me change. How can I in good faith teach people sumbrada and look them straight in the eye and tell them they are learning to fight when my own experience has shown me that it is not a good training method for fighting?
Teaching them an art/recreation and a pastime is one thing, but telling a person that he is learning to defend himself (especially against a weapon!) NO WAY. I am too honest for that.
I applaud Burt. I really don't know him, I have met him 2x at the academy in LA-he seems like a real nice and genuine guy. His ability to look past his own ego and image as recognized martial arts figure and come out publicly and say that most of the stuff he taught on his earlier tapes was flash and BS has made me a permanent fan.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Demitrius Barbito
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 09:55 AM
The biggest problem I see regarding this matter is this. I have had many people come in to train who have been doing the whole "JKD thing" for 5 - 10 years who have never done anything other than "hubud/chi sao/lop sao" as a drill. Some actually think that the "drills" are magic. I let them do their thing for a few and then I ask one partner to resist the other and then tell the main guy to "pull off his moves". Before they even start the main guy says something like:
"How am I supposed to do that if he resists?"
By the end of the training I have both of them pulling of sneak attacks on eachother while progressivly resisting. Then I tell one guy "Don't let your partner do anything to you" - and they go pretty rough (with and without gear). You know how good you felt about pulling off techniques in hubud... Imagine how good it feels when the sucker is totally resisting you and you can sanp his head down, swing him into the wall with Dumog, tie up his arms and knee his low line etc...
When it's over they usually understand that what came before was "foundational" and they see how in one session they have progressed. They "Learned" many techniques in "hubud" and now they will "functionalize" them with progressive resistance.
But I do like hubud for teaching a new student a set of tools. It gives them a way to train them in a smooth way. It lets them get it all burned in before they try to use it. I like them to be able to do hubud at a very intense level and show me that they can "roadmap" the body. Once they know where all the trap doors and land mines are we throw away hubud for resistance. I have a set of training drills I like to use. Some we made up others we borrow. One is the pummeling of the SBG.
Demi Barbito
www.DemiBarbito.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Joe Maffei
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 09:55 AM
BreakUnose . You are exactly right. What did you learn from Sumbrada? don't get caught in that range. Get in or get out.
Chapman..I agree. If people want recreation. Use recreational training.
Matt. As we posted before. Being in sports all my life. progressive resistance and doing the exact moves are the only way to be functional.
JKFfighter. I also see indirect benefits to Sumbrada.
Mosley. You git to be honestRight?
So what's up. Where do we go from here. Maybe integrate. Use all the wisdom from these post to help people have recreational fun, build attributes, funtionalize there training, and be honest and educate the student to the many ways one can approach Martial Arts training.
Bruce said "The individual is always more important then any established style." So a 24 year old buck may need or want something a little different then a 73 year old senior citizen. J.M.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 10:34 AM
Well, I'm back this morning and I see that no progress has been made. I've stated that we train hard, we spar hard, we train with timing, energy, motion and a resisting opponent. Yet, because we use a sumbrada drill to supplement the training, we are lumped together with 90% of the JKDC schools who I know do not train with reality truly in mind.
If I had another name for it, it would be accepted. Maybe use the name, "close range training". But, because it has the name "sumbrada" the minds are already closed.
If I am teaching sumbission wrestling and I am going to train with a student and I say, "Okay, today we are going to drill attacks and counters. I will move into position for a lock and at any point in the execution you counter and move until you can set up one of an attack of your own. I will then look for the counter and attack of my own. We will start off light and then we will build up the speed and resistance, later we will spar and see what comes out." This is wrong? I don't think so.
I teach a student to do an arm bar. I will teach them maybe 3-4 defenses and counterattacks. Now the student knows a few options in defense and counter, so, now I teach him the counters to the counters. I set this up in a drill that has a limited set of possibilities that he can handle and in a way that will allow the armbar to be executed by both sides. You have no idea which defense or counterattack the other will use, you have to react with timing to be able to set it up and make it work. You eventually can resist full force and he will still be able to link up the other counters and escape, maybe, and then set up his own attack. This turns into a limited sparring type drill that has a direct correlation to fighting, right? Hopefully you will agree with that. Well, this is our sumbrada drill.
We start with a limited set of attacks and counters and drill it. You don't know which defense or counter the partner will use, you have to react with proper timing against a resisting opponent. This will be a limited sparring drill to improve your performance at this range. The goal is to simply hit the opponent. Will you stay at this range in a real fight or match? No.
Will you fight like a boxing match in a real fight? No. Why do it then? You will only use a small portion of what you do in boxing sparring in a real fight. Will you stand around and have a guy stay on the outside throwing punches and kicks back and forth at eachother like sparring for kickboxing? No, it will not stay at that range for long. So why do it? Will you ever just roll around on the ground looking for submissions? No, there will be other tools involved. All of these methods are to improve a certain skill and a certain range. You may kickbox for hours and only use that range for the first second or two of a real fight, yet you still find value in that.
People stand around flicking and swinging sticks at eachother and think that they are stick fighting when a real attack will never be like that. Someone will just come in swinging hard and fast at the primary targets, not the secondary targets. Yet, they spend most of their time sparring in a manner that is unlike a real attack. Yet, that is okay. Do I think that you shouldn't spar because of it? Of course not. It builds the timing and reactions that are necessary in a real attack. Yet, it is unlike a real attack.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 10:41 AM
Cont...
I like Joe's definition of sumbrada being a range, in fact that's what Guro Dan has called it many times, "sumbrada range". The drills that are used can vary, but are to enhance that range. I know of a very prominent Dog Brother that sucks at the drills but can play well at the range. He can do the freelance, he just can't drill. Guro Dan said, "It would be nice if you can do the drills, however it's not necessary". The drills that we do are not dead by any means. You have no idea which strike I will throw and I have no idea how you will counter. We know that there are a limited amount of attacks and a limited amount of responses, we just don't know which is going to be used.
Matt, I've had your tapes ever since they first came out. I've got both of Burton's as well as Daniel's, Chris Hauter's, Bob Bass and Rick Williams, and Don Familton's. I totally agree with your message and it did help me to further enhance what we were already doing. However, I feel that OUR sumbrada still has merit and value for the teaching method. There is not just one correct method to train just as there is not just one truth.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 10:44 AM
Good response Demi, I'm on the same road.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: asinger
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 11:08 AM
JKDfighter, If you are ever interested in haveing some SBG guys at your school let me know. My brother and I are in GA and would be more than happy to come do a seminar for you and shoe you close up what the SBG is all about.
Thanks Adam Singer
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 11:24 AM
Thanks Adam, but, as I said, I know full well what the SBG is about and I respect it. We already do train "alive", thanks. We fight Muay Thai, we train BJJ and Combat Submission Wrestling, we throw the gear on train full contact with the stick or knife from standing to grappling. I've had some of my guys fight NHB as well.
I'll be getting my promoter's license later this year to also bring more fights to KY and help promote the arts. I've been training for twenty years, played sports through high school, joined the Army at 17 as a Recon Scout for the Cavalry and spent two years as a Drill Sgt. I started teaching in our town in 1990 when all training was hard core kickboxing and fighting in all ranges, with and without weapons. My philosophy was "learn how to fight by fighting". We never had more than 10-15 students. Now, My wife and I run a full time school. This is what I do for a living. So, I know how to train for fighting and I know how to run a school.
BTW, the tone of your last sentence was not too friendly. Maybe I'm mistake, but it sounded rather confrontational for a simple discussion forum. I hope that I am wrong.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: asinger
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 11:51 AM
JKDFIGHTER you are totaly mistaken about the tone of my post. I guess this is the problem with the internet. I just saw your interest in the SBG material and since I am so close I just thought I would offer. I was not familliar with your extensive background. I meant no disrespect and am sorry if I came off wrong.
Adam
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 11:59 AM
Adam, no problem at all. I had hoped that it was just my misunderstanding through the written word and I am glad that it was. I appreciate your reply very much, thank you.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: asinger
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 12:08 PM
Just a note for you. Matt will be in CInci (giving a seminar) in March. I am not sure where in KY you are but I know Cinci is close to KY. Matt, PaulS and Myself will be on hand if you were interested. Thanks Adam
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 12:16 PM
Where in Cinci and when in March? Cinci borders on KY actually and is only an hour and a half away.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: asinger
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 12:46 PM
I lied in may, 25-26.
Adam
Subject: RE: INFO
From: ams
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 01:18 PM
everyone who knows me in the martial arts world, knows what and how Burton did what he did to me. And its something that I will ever forgive or forget. And I would not want to see anyone get caught in that web like I did.
Sorry, but what really happened?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sled Dog
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 01:45 PM
Now Guro Inosanto is one of my teachers and I respect him all to death and every thing, but what is this about him and Lucky Lucay Lucay "creating" Hubid lubid?
There are many other FMA systems that have drills with a similar pourpose and use and a different lexicon of terms to describe it. Also why would it matter to so many people how it was pronounced?
Are we talking urban legend FMA style? Or is it the specializes way it is practiced that was unique?
Cur
Subject: RE: INFO
From: AWSolis
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 02:07 PM
ams,
I am not going go there this time...Matt was right...lets talk training.
My instructor called Hubud...."count to 4". When I told him I knew it as Hubud Lubud Higot, he cracked up laughing...he said that meant "Get Naked and Hide"?
Alvis
www.solismartialarts.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: BreakUnose
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 03:16 PM
LOL@ "get naked and hide"
Joe- A slight disagreement on your summary of my post. I learned not to get caught in sumbrada range by sparring full contact. I learned not to get caught in pattern drilling by doing sumbrada.
Mosley- I'm with you 100% on the teaching angle.
Demi=Rock-n-Roll Adam-see you in march JKDFIGHTER- You seem a little defensive man. I don't think you are being singled out. I know I wasn't even thinking about you. It's cool. I just didn't want you to feel attacked. I can dig where you're coming from even though I don't really agree with you. Hope you can meet the Singers. For a couple of sissies, they're pretty cool;)
Jerry
Subject: RE: INFO
From: 4 Ranges
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 03:22 PM
JKDFighter:
In response to your earlier post (I haven't read the rest of this thread. Boy is it long!!), I'm basing my opinions based simply from MY experiences with this particular aspect of the JKD matrix. Interestingly, from what I've read and heard, the same thing can be seen with advanced savate practitioners: most of their training is live sparring, and getting in the flight time. The same could also be said about BJJ: they don't have a version of hubud or sumbrada, they simply spar live (which, I think, really lends to the effectiveness of the art and their practitioners).
However, I'm not saying that sparring is the ONLY training method out there of any real worth. I'm just saying that, when you reach a particular level of proficiency in a particular art, live sparring takes a much much bigger role in your training than actual drilling.
I don't think it's a black and white issue, but just a matter of how much of what method should be practiced by a particular practitioner, at their current level.
bottom line: in my opinion, the more advanced you are, the more your training should consist of live-sparring.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: KENWINGJITSU
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 04:04 PM
That last papragraph by Demi had me reeling in chills. I strongly suggest everyone re-read that paragraph over and over again like 20 - 30 times, and then read it again and again.
Subject: jkd fighter
From: smartmonkey
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 04:16 PM
JKDFighter,
The internet is such a poor tool to try and explain something. I hope one day to meet you in person at a seminar or event, or perhaps you get a chance to train with the Singers or another SBG'r. In that setting it will be much easier for us both to communicate.
The problem is this, now you state:
"Okay, today we are going to drill attacks and counters. I will move into position for a lock and at any point in the execution you counter and move until you can set up one of an attack of your own. I will then look for the counter and attack of my own. We will start off light and then we will build up the speed and resistance, later we will spar and see what comes out." This is wrong? I don't think so. "
Nobody would ever claim that was wrong, myself included. But the again, this is not what we are talking about.
This post was about Sumbrada. A drill that starts as a 'box' pattern, a series of angles that repeats itself over and over. As taught to beginers in most schools you called it:
"The way most people practice and demonstrate sumbrada is a pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship and false fighting ability that has little to do with reality. However, this is just the first stage"
"HOWEVER, THIS IS THE FIRST STAGE"???
This is the problem with JKDC people. You don't begin by teaching people incorrect timing, distance, body mechanics, zoning, and movements. And then PROGRESS to correct timing, distance, body mechanics, and movement. It just doesn't work that way, and it makes zero sense.
Now, here is the kicker, if the "energy" of the drill is 'contrived', that is not ressembling what you would encounter in a real match. . .which I think Sumbrada clealry is, and judging by your statement:
(pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship),
so do you, the it will ALWAYS produce incorrect mechanics and bad habits.
. . .why is that the first stage? It shouldn't be a "stage" at all. In fact, it shouldn't be on the menu!
Now, if you are not teaching Sombrada that way. . then this conversation is pointless. If you are simply swinging a random angle, and having a student counter and respond in kind, without a pattern, with real footwork, and swinging with progressive resistence, but resistence that has the energy of a real strike (IE: not holding your stick arm out at centerline so your partner can execute his inside sweep), then you are doing what we do. But, that is not what we are talking about.
Finally, if you are teaching that(pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship), so you can then 'break them out of the pattern' and get them into the further stages of training, then I think you are wasting the athletes time, teaching something that is counter-productive, and straddling the fence between Aliveness and fantasy. But thats okay, because from what I see and read, that is what everyone else is doing as well.
My gods honest guess is that most Instructors simply don't know how else to do it. Since they don't understand how to drill they fear they will lose students by teaching Alive. That students 'want' or need these drills. To stay in business they have to do it this way.
Again, that is a fallacy. There are much better ways to teach. Just as safe, just as easy to learn, just as fun, and FAR more functional.
On another note. I have been able to be online becuase I have been stuck at this computer trying to get an update done at our website. This update should be huge. I will drop a note on here as soon as we get everything posted.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 04:36 PM
You like to keep using this:
"The way most people practice and demonstrate sumbrada is a pathetic,watered down,pretty little display of showmanship and false fighting ability that has little to do with reality. However, this is just the first stage"
If I came into your gym and I saw you teaching beginners with a slow telegraphed shot to get the student used to simple attacks so that they could properly attack, I would say the same thing. However, I know that you would be moving the student on to more alive methods. The same goes for our sumbrada method. The reason that I used such powerful wording was because most teachers never move their students very far beyond the most basic drill and I have a strong disgust for it.
I don't think that the drill itself is pathetic, but it is when it is passed off as real fight training. We only view it as an enhancement tool. The drill is only preset in the most early stages just as you would only teach one counter to an armbar first. Most students cannot assimilate large amounts of information at once. But, as soon as they can handle multiple attacks and counters, they are moved on to more free and live sparring.
I look forward to seeing your new updates, I've been able to be home today since the University where I teach is closed today! It's been nice to loaf, although it's time for our school to open in an hour!
Good training all!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ern-Dpg
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 04:40 PM
"This is the problem with JKDC people. You don't begin by teaching people incorrect timing, distance, body mechanics, zoning, and movements. And then PROGRESS to correct timing, distance, body mechanics, and movement."
By teaching Sumbrada in it's most basic stage, it does not teach incorrect timing, distance, body mechanics, and zoning; IMO. To me, it's the the foundation, it is the "flow". The timing/distance/etc. are not incorrect, just altered. It is a beginning point. I'm sorry, to tell me Sumbrada has no benifits is just funny. Even Paul Vunak stated....
"As the years went on, I moved up to the Phase Four and JKD classes. The folks in these classes were simply at too high a level for me to pull off my formula against them. We had many pro boxers, kickboxers, and Thai boxers, and for month after month after month, Dan would watch me attempt my formula (enter, straight blast, HKE) to no avail. I had no boxing gloves on, and could not return fire to the face, but would receive very heavy blows from everyone else. Dan finally got tired of watching me eat leather, and gave me a rather odd directive. He suggested that I stop sparring in the JKD class, and join his weapons class. At that point, I protested vehemently. I believe my words were something like, “Dan, what the heck do I need weapons for? After all, I’m not going to be walking down the street, and some crazed Filipino is going to jump out of a tree with espada y daga, and I of course have my espada y daga handy to defend myself.” At that point, Dan once again gave me the “dumbshit” look and very patiently explained to me that there were these things called attributes, and I seriously lacked them. There were a myriad of wonderful drill that the Filipinos invented, that he called self-perfection drills; and he assured me that if I got into his class for six months, the attributes that I lacked would be raised and I would be able to enter, straight blast, and head butt the JKD guys as well. Well, to make a long story short (it appears to be too late for that), after six months, four hours a day of sumbrada, serrada, numerada, carrenza, hubbud, etc. Dan approached me and advised me to go back into the JKD class. I did so, and to my amazement, I was straight blasting, head butting, kneeing, and elbowing every person in the class. This gave me an incredible epiphany: I learned that full-contact sparring alone, even though it is the most “alive” drill one can do, is not enough to take a person even close to their fullest potential!"
My experience with these drills have been very much like Vu's. They've helped my game (empty hands and weapons) tremendously.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: smartmonkey
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 04:48 PM
JKDFighter,
I am sure you are providing a good service for your students. Again, never take anything I am saying personally. MA's are not that important anyway. Perhaps we can meet sometime when I am at the seminar in Ohio and we can talk about more importnat things. . .like why Paul Sharp is so defensive about going bald.
In regards your statment:
"If I came into your gym and I saw you teaching beginners with a slow telegraphed shot to get the student used to simple attacks so that they could properly attack, I would say the same thing."
You would not walk into my Gym and see that. Since we are talking about sticks. . .
if you walked into a beginer stickfighting class at an SBG you would see people moving around, swinging through with forehands and backhands, while the other person practices D, hitting the hand, crashing, in, etc, all using progressive resistence.
Nobody gets hurt, there are NO patterns, no contrived footwork, it's all random and real. Just preogressive. When they move to the sparring 'stage', nothing needs to be 'tweeked' or modified, because they where trained correctly from day one. There is nothing to fix. There is no box pattern. It's fun, and students like it.
You should try it sometime for a change of pace.
Teach one group of students using your sombrada/hubud progressions, and then work them through all the different 'stages' you have to sparring. And then, at the same time, have another group that just drills Alive, as I described above. No patterns, no hubud, no B.S., just sparring drills against progressive resistence.
Then have them spar each other. The results should interest you, and more then anything else make my point.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Joe Maffei
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 05:07 PM
Hey Matt .I was trying to post that people always relate Sumnrada, TO the box pattern or some pattern. But really to me, it's about that Range. Excluding all patterns. J.M.
Subject: Agree
From: smartmonkey
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 05:15 PM
Joe, thanks again for allowing such a free speaking forum.
I like this place in that it is pretty devoid of politics, ie: personality related issues, gossip, and issues between individuals. But, people are free to speak and air issues of training without censorship, that's a great thing for JKD people.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sled Dog
Date: 18-Feb-02 | 05:24 PM
I thought I had posted this, so if I have doubled up somewhere I am sorry.
When (as has been stated in this thread) were Guro Inosanto And Lucky Lucay Lucay supposed to have "created " Hubid Lubid. I have seen very similar drill patterns in other FMA systems in weapon variations that are not similar to the one normally evoked for this type of practice so I am led to believe that the possibility that this type of one-for-one counter-recounter practice has been used before in other FMA's. These are after all only drills with as much emphasis as you want to put into them. I suppose that if you want you can throw anything you want at a student but I am inclined to give them a brick that they can build with as well as one they can throw at an opponent.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: mikham777
Date: 20-Feb-02 | 01:22 AM
WOW...great thread. Need to archive this one
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ausgepicht
Date: 21-Feb-02 | 10:51 AM
I won't say "Yea' or "Nay" on this thread, but I would like to add something about the Hubad. I was taught that it meant Tie/Untie and that you are actually trying for a neck tie or cross neck tie. Therefore Tie.....Untie...
Most of what I see is people Karate chopping a #1 angle. So I would suggest that since it is actually at close range it isn't supposed to be a Karate chop, but rather a Tie. A Grappling drill if you will.
Personally, I would rather just clinch and work ties myself.
That's alls I gots to say about that! ;-p
Subject: RE: INFO
From: KENWINGJITSU
Date: 21-Feb-02 | 03:28 PM
Wait a minute.....tie untie?
And the "defense (double parry looking thingy) could be the "untie/removal" of the neck tie???? If that's what you're saying Aus,...then I bow down again to you as always. I'vee seen the move & never understood what it was (without sticks) so I have refrained from comment. But if this is the "Application", then....shit! One simple post was all it took.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: AWSolis
Date: 21-Feb-02 | 04:19 PM
Woof Sled Dog!
Doesn't Pekiti teach a version of Hubad called Sigung Labo? I saw an old video of Leo throwing Erwin Ballarta around with Sigung Labo....it was impressive.
Alvis
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKD/MMA
Date: 21-Feb-02 | 04:32 PM
A lot of the old-time Filipino Boxers were partial to throwing #1&2's with the hammer fist (influenced by the way they used their sticks). Higot-Hubad-Lubad is a part of Panantukan training, so that explains why you see #1's and #2's as well as straight punches and elbows. The hammer fist is a sturdy tool, and very safe to use on harder targets. From time to time we play one for one hubad with hooks instead of #1's; it works about the same. There are also tons of flows dealing with the single neck tie. Erik Paulson, Larry Hartsell and Dan Inosanto teach them same ones except Paulson tends to leave the eye jabs out.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Sled Dog
Date: 21-Feb-02 | 07:56 PM
Woof Alvis,
In Pekiti the Sagong Labo is a variation of the offensive/defensive patterning of the umbrellas in a counter for counter format. This drill crosses to all weapon categories in Pekiti. Ironically the empty hand application is not similar to the hubad-lubad empty hand at the initial stage, but tends to look like it later on in free form application.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 12:52 AM
I can't believe that you guys are even wasting your time with even talking about hubud or sumbrado. Geez, haven't you read anything on this thread?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: AWSolis
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 09:32 AM
LOL! JKDFIGHTER, most Dog Brothers still do Hubad, most of us do some version of Sumbrada. The attacking blocks drill is a unique version of Sumbrada. The intensity level is what changes the drill from being useless to alive. The main thing is that these drills are also just fun. Even in the world of Dog Brothers, we are allowed to have fun.
Woof!
Alvis
Hound Dog!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: KENWINGJITSU
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 04:18 PM
"most Dog Brothers still do Hubad, most of us do some version of Sumbrada. "
Okay...now I have a headache....
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 05:08 PM
Alvis,
You don't say!! See, I thought for sure that I had worked sumbrada and hubud with Crafty Dog several times, but after this thread I thought surely I was mistaken. I guess not!
:) Just having fun!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Joe Maffei
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 05:14 PM
Hey Alvis. Haveing fun is what this place is all about. BTW, Glad to have you here helping out.
Thanks J.M.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ausgepicht
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 05:18 PM
JKD/MMA:
Maybe it's just the way I learned it, but with a knife, with a stick and empty hand you are still tieing up. The blade goes on the back of the neck, or the butt of the stick (puñyo) goes on the back of the neck (possibly for a fang choke).
Hubad was supposed to be a range. Close range. So there should be tons of clinching/ties. Hammerfists, etc. are considered Sumbrada range, no?
But as JKDFighter said, why are we even??! LOL!
Aus
Subject: RE: INFO
From: mikham777
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 05:28 PM
I posted a link to this thread on the Dog Bros. Forum, and Marc Denny responded w/ the following. With his permission, I am posting the following response from him:
Woof Mike:
I took a look, and briefly a few points:
I don't know that much about Matt Thorton, but he certainly does seem to be a guy trying to think and examine the entrails of what he sees as sacred cows. The people I have met out of his thing (e.g. the Singer brothers) seem to be of consistently good level. I think I understand exactly what he is saying, AND FOR WHAT HE HAS IN MIND about how many people use Hubud & sombrada training, the inside sweep etc, he makes sense. I agree with many of his counters to some of the arguments that are made in defense of these training methods, techniques, etc.
That said, I'd like to offer a couple of points, some minor and some more substantive:
1) sombrada: For people of Vunak lineage this term is a range known by most everyone else as "medio"-- as well as a training method that they use in medio range.
As a training method, basically it is a game of catch and need not be limited to media range. It can be done at any range. Hell, it could be done boxing or kickboxing or grappling. To do this requires flow.
However, many people lack flow.
Just like in music, some people can improvise and others need sheet music. The "box pattern" is merely a page or two of sheet music that teaches a cord or two and a snippet of a melody. Just like some people never get beyond a handful of chords on the guitar, some people sit at this level, repeating it endlessly. And just like music, some people learn more and more scale and chord theory and begin to experiment until they become a real musician capable of expressing himself through improvisation.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: mikham777
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 05:29 PM
2) Hubud-lubud: NOT INVENTED BY GURO I. Certainly I share the belief that there is much for which Guro I. has not received his due, but not in this case. In my limited knowledge (and I am very bad at such things) I can specifically think of it predating Guro I. in Villabrille Kali, Doce Pares and Pekiti Tirsia.
Again, a training method only a particular couple of chords and a portion of a scale of which are known here in the US. There is much, much more than the four basic beats of block, clear, check and hack, as those who invest more time around Guro I may appreciate. And OF COURSE if you stand there flatfooted with your thingy hanging out, you aren't learning much you can transpose to a fight.
(BTW, that comment about "undress and tie up" is yet another example of Filipino terminological squabbling. While accurate in one dialect, in another dialect it means to "tie and untie". Arguing over stuff like this is IMHO like an American and a Mexican arguing over the meaning of "negro". For the American, it is a negative term for black people, and for the Mexican it means what an American would call "black". What a silly argument that would be!)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: mikham777
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 05:29 PM
3) The Inside sweep: Does the meaning change if there is a knife in the left hand? And/or if it not seen as an initial motion? If seen as a finalizing motion? (e.g. the dagger into the liver?) I think so. Again, if one looks at it as Matt does, i.e. as trained by many clueless people, he is right.
Guro Inosanto reversed the order of LaCoste's first and third teaching areas from Long & Short as the being the first area taught to being the third, and Single from being the third to being the first area taught. More than once in recent years I have Guro I. say that if he had it to do over again that he would leave Long & Short as the first area. As to why he says this, my own guess is that this is because in L&S, the killing blow is with the live hand and training L&Ss from the beginning develops substance for the live hand even thought the long is in the strong side hand and conversely the practitioner who trains single first usually accentuates the disparity between strong side and the other hand. Most people who train single stick first and predominantly tend to have poor rear live hands.
This can be important when it comes to empty hand applications.
Most of the comments I saw in the thread seem to envision the idea being used against a long range forehand diagonal. What if there is a science of triangular or crashing footwork that can get someone to this position? Personally, I prefer crashing with the tip down, (i.e. a roof block) but I regularly stop the stick's forward motion and often disarms (usually a snake) are readily available.
4) In my humble opinion the training methods in question were intended for people who already were warriors, and were designed to tune up weapon skills for a combat that might come at any moment. Getting dinged up in training (cut, twisted knee, whatever) was not a tolerable cost. Let me underline this point: Those training, including the teachers, already were were warriors. As the Art has come to America, this has not often been the case; the simple fact is that the bulk of FMA people in the US have little or no fight experience-- but that is not the Art's fault!
In my experience the Art has tremendous value. Without the Art, I would not have been able to do the fighting I have done. Without the Art I would not have been able to put several times more people on the field at our Gatherings of the Pack than anyone else. This includes many people very far from the type that one would expect-- which is a good test of the teaching and training method. To accomplish this I used and use many drills, modified and adapted as I saw and see fit. Of course the drills by themselves can be made meaningless by the manner of training-- but with the synergy of training AND fighting the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Either by itself would not have yielded any where near the same results.
Just my opinion and experience, Woof, Crafty Dog
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Stickgrappler
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 05:42 PM
woof!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Kevin Curtis
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 05:44 PM
Joe... you're thread's headed towards 100!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: smartmonkey
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 05:49 PM
I actually agree with what Mark says here. Both Burton and I teach a Sombrada drill. . .if you render Sombrada to the concept of 'catch' at any range. We do that at long range, (largo mano), with no checking hand and no pattern.
Simply put, I believe the use of pattern drills, such as the typical sombrada box pattern, are at best not needed, and at worst, counter-productive.
We take a different aproach. Those intersted can see that aproach in detail to an answer I gave earlier in the question about triangle footwork. It's a simple, fast, athletic, and very fun aproach. It's also, obviously based on the posts here, a different aproach then whats done often here. That's why we get that message out. A lot of people would like to use this aporoach, and hold interest in learning it's specifics. In fact, if given the option, I think most people would probably have more fun with this aproach. We are trying to give more and more people the option.
I think Mark's key statement not to be missed is this: "Of course the drills by themselves can be made meaningless by the manner of training."
This is the difference between Alive and dead training. Now where I think those of you that disagree with me come in is that you feel you 'need' to start with dead patterns, and progress to Alive drills. I simply, completely disagree. I think dead patterns are are a complete waste of a students time, and beyond taking a few minutes to 'show' someone a move. . .never needed. I do not buy into the theories of "hard wiring reflexes" etc, through dead pattern training.
That said, there is nothing really further to add in regards these drills as far as SBG or myself is concerned.
But, one of the dumbest posts I have read so far is one that stated simple
"Don't you know it's all about fighting."
NOTHING could be further from the truth! In fact, I think the opposite is true. I think it is the 'fighting' or Alive training, that leads to the mystical "self-perfection" or self actualization parts of this lifestyle. Without it, Martial Arts can actually become a counter-productive activity that leads to insecure Gurus/Sifus, that have a position to defend. In that sense I agree with one of Mark's credos, and the Dog Brothers belief in self knowledge through harder contact. Without it = no self knowledge.
In regards the ART, that is an interesting word. How do you define Art? Do you define Art as passing on a series of moves, skills, or drills, that were taught before. A list of movements, forms, or ideas?
Or do you define Art by performance? If it's the later, then again complete agreement, if it's the former. I do not agree. The ART is in the PERFORMANCE of the ARTIST.
Is the ART if BJJ defined in a catalog that sits on Helio Gracies desk, or is the ART of BJJ defined at the precise, pefect, sublime moment that Rickson takes the arm of a worthy opponent?
You decide.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sovann
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 07:08 PM
"Of course the drills by themselves can be made meaningless by the manner of training-- but with the synergy of training AND fighting the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Either by itself would not have yielded any where near the same results."
Nice post by the Crafty One.
Matt, in "Aliveness plus thread" you demonstrate clearly the need to PRIORITIZE. Why in terms of defining ART must it be an either/or decision? Why can't the elements you indentify also be prioritized and included in a definition of the ART along the lines of both/and more?
If your goal is subjective enjoyment of art, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so there is no Truth, everything is equal and a personal choice. If your goal is results and performance, then it becomes more objective, and there is universal Truth to be discovered/observed/articulated. ("Do you need ALIVENESS?")
I think a lot of the confusion in definitions and terminology are fundamental differences in why folks are studying or training.
Onward to 100 posts!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: smartmonkey
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 08:13 PM
Sovaan,
Clearly you can define Art as you wish.
You can see Art as demonstrating cool moves, and looking slick. Many do.
You could see Art as preserving a tradition as taught, many people do.
You could see Art as perfection of the self through performance, I do.
Ask yourself what you consider Art and go after that. Just be clear on your original goal.
In your case you mentioned earlier about being confused, in effect trying to add to a delivery system that was not in fact Alive. Which many in Concepts mistakingly do under the guise of "all Arts have something good". *(reference the word Djuru for example)
Perhaps you could have saved yourself a lot of time by being clearer on your own definition of Art? Just a thought.
Is the Art of boxing in the memorized moves of the sport, or Roy Jones JR's perfectly timed cross? Is the Art of figure skating inside the rule manuals of the judges, and the 'tradition' of dance moves handed down, or does it exist in that moment in time when the skater executes everything perfectly, and finds the 'stillpoint'?
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 10:52 PM
"Don't you know it's all about fighting."
Yes, you are right, this was very stupid. It was meant to be stupid. That's why it was sarcasm and was pretty obvious to everyone else. Sometimes, though, it seems that this is all that is important to a lot of people on this forum. If development of self is important at all it is rarely, if ever, talked about. In fact, one has to wonder how often the development of self is ever even discussed in MA schools or is it just something that sounds good on paper?
On another note, thank you Mikham for posting Guro Crafty's response which is very much along the same lines of our philosophy.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Demitrius Barbito
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 11:21 PM
I've learned more over the past 3 years of training than in the previous 10. As far as this topic goes... I have experienced both sides of the coin. I used to be a 50/50 guy (even though a sifu once told me to only go hard 5% of the time - I'm so uncooperative). Over the past two years I've been a 25% drills - 75% "let's do it"! This was the premise of my Killing Giants Video. People have been trained to "drill and spar" when they should be trained to fight/submit/hurt an opponent! The training has changed... The process has been accelerated...
My good friend Scott Ferreira came to a seminar I conducted last year. We did some stick drilling and then sparring and then fighting. Durring the stick fighting part of the seminar he was continually wincing. He kept thinking people were going to go to the E.R. It was'nt really out of hand but it was more than he was used to seeing beginners allowed to do. Guess what? It all worked out! No one got hurt! Everyone loved it! And they got a dose of the higher end of the training from the beginning.
You cannot limit your training to tradition, the limits of your facility or whims. Reality based/results oriented training is not just a lofty notion. It's the standard.
Demi (Thee Uncooperative) Barbito
www.DemiBarbito.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Demitrius Barbito
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 11:26 PM
Here's another example...
Tomorrow morning I'm have a group of 15 people come into my facility for Defensive/Tactical handgun training. We will do a 4 hour classroom course on everything from basic manipulation to room entries to coming around corners to hostile capture etc.
Then...
They will suit up in specialized protective gear and be armed with "real" weapons (Glocks and revolvers) and, using SUIMUNITION, play out home invasion, break in etc scenarios with "Live Fire". This training has been limited to Elite Military and SWAT for years. It's now trickling down to cops/sherrif/probation etc. But even then the bugets don't allow it. Here a room of private citizens will be using the same type of training that the Sky Marshalls are doing - on day one! And yes, if you get shot it hurts like a mother.
Demi (I'm gonna get shot a lot tomorrow) Barbito
www.DemiBarbito.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: smartmonkey
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 11:53 PM
JKDFIGHTER,
You missed the point. I fully grasped your poor attempt at sarcasm, and also grasped the fact that you where aiming it at the Gym. Hence my reply. Read more carefully next time. Your attempt at 'sarcasm' was why I called it dumb in the first place.
It's among the most common excuses given by people feeling defensive about their lack of Alive training. We have answered it a thousand times. Check the new 'street vs sport nonsense' section for some good articles on the subject.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: JKDFIGHTER
Date: 22-Feb-02 | 11:58 PM
Why would you feel that I was aiming it at "the Gym"?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Joe Maffei
Date: 23-Feb-02 | 07:30 AM
Well we didn't it. The first real thread to hit 100. What I mean by real. No posts with TTT. We had real talk
J.M.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: asinger
Date: 23-Feb-02 | 09:53 AM
That was nice of Crafty to say about me and Rory. Boy was that a long time ago (3.5 years).
Adam
Subject: RE: INFO
From: sovann
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 12:33 AM
"In your case you mentioned earlier about being confused, in effect trying to add to a delivery system that was not in fact Alive."
Yep, Dead + Alive does not equal Alive; at least for me it didn't. I had to completely rethink what I was doing which was to put try to put Aliveness on like icing on a dead cake.
"Perhaps you could have saved yourself a lot of time by being clearer on your own definition of Art? Just a thought."
Exactly, unfortunately old habits die hard.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: mikham777
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 05:57 AM
More from Crafty Dog:
" I took a look to see the responses, and a couple of quick yips:
1) Tail wags to Hound Dog for the kind words about the "Attacking Blocks" drill of Dog Brothers Martial Arts. The AB drill, like the box pattern used to get people started in Sombrada, is designed so that the first half of the cycle meshes with the second half. Like Hubad, it is designed to be a generator with which one can play and experiment in a live fashion. The idea for the particular movements started with Seguita (a.k.a. Combination) #3 of the first set of Pekiti Tirsia.
2) What is "Art"? As Matt notes, it is a word of more than one meaning. In DBMA, Art is defined as "the collective repository of unspoken human wisdom".
The Filipino Arts were developed when they were about the cutting edge of life and death encounters. There were no magazines full of advertisements about where to find videos full of slo-motion. In this context to have fixed patterns designed to create specific instants made sense for people who had never seen it, or had only seen the blur of real application. To my way of thinking a given sequence of moves that could only be done a really bad opponent may be correctly interpreted as a tactile map; "if you find yourself here, look for this". Many times at key moments I have had moves spontaneously appear because of this training.
I have been with Guro Inosanto for many years, including several years where I was the dummy for his lessons with Rigan and with Roger Machado. (Indeed I was the one who got him started with the Machados) In the context of those lessons when it came time to roll, there was no disrespect for me to seek a submission.
I mention this to make clear the point that when I asked him to help me with my staff fighting and my stickgrappling and we sparred (padded staffs & hockey helmets for the staff, and padded sticks for the stick grappling) that I had no psychic hindrance to scoring. However he it did not matter-- he took me apart-- overwhelmingly in staff, and clearly in the stickgrappling. This was when I was in peak fighting form. In BJJ when Rigan or Roger would leave the room while we were rolling he would nail me with silat stuff that I had always looked at like , , , well kinda like Matt looks at some things.
I agree with many points that Matt makes, but I do think he sometimes runs the risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Woof, Crafty Dog
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ausgepicht
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 10:48 AM
ttt...evolve little bitch (the thread for you sensitive types)
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Ern-Dpg
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 04:41 PM
Crafty Dog is correct.
Subject: dirty bathwater
From: smartmonkey
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 04:47 PM
I think Mark and I will simply disagree on this one. However, I am sure if we corresponded directly, both our viewpoints would have more in common then not.
Again, my definition of Art as related to sports, movement, dance, and fighting, relates directly to performance.
Using BJJ again as an example. . .the Art of BJJ does not exist in any one technique, or drill, but in the performance of the person doing BJJ. It exists 'IN' them. Just as the "Art" of JKD should be "YOU", not what Bruce Lee, or Dan Inosanto, or anyone else "did"/"does". However, this can only happen when you 'spar' yourself. That is what I initially found so beautiful about the DB FMA Paradigm. It allows each FMA player to 'create' their own style. The JKD of weapons.
This is a very diferent definition then Mark's "the collective repository of unspoken human wisdom"
That sounds something more along the lines of Jung's collective unconcious, or what my friend Chris Haeuter calls 'primal knowledge'. If it is, then I don't think you could ever even come close to aproaching it through a dead pattern, or form. (There are certainly some ways to aproach that "CU", and other doors or perception, but I think Mark and I would have to discuss those privately)But that definition is esoteric enough to be interpeted many different ways.
Baby with the bathwater? Again, as Sovaan pointed out, dead + alive = dead. You cannot mesh shotokan with Mauy Thai. The delivery systems are so disimiliar it simply won't work. You cannot mesh Greco with Wing Chun, for the same reason. You cannot mesh Silat with Freestyle, or Judo, same reason. I am sure MANY people would argue this point, but never the less, one is Alive and real, and one is Fantasy. At best I find this practice of JKDC people a waste of time, and at worst counter-productive.
How can previous experience be counter-productive? That's easy. Many of you here at this forum teach. If so, I am sure you have had people walk into your schools who had a black belt in traditional Karate, or TKD, etc, and others that had zero previous training. Who was easier to teach the mechanics of boxing to? It has been my experience over the last twelve Years that attempting to teach the 'delivery system' of Boxing to a Karate person can be a LONG process. They must first re-learn the basics of how to move, and most especially, how to relax. This is because the 'delivery system' they where taught previously was not the same as they are trying to learn now. It was based on a completely different set of physical laws. It was not "Alive".
This would be very similiar to trying to teach Judo to a Silat person, or real clinch work. . aka: Greco, to someone who had the misfortune of doing to much Wing Chun. This is where Bruce's Zen analogy of the empty cup comes in. The beautiful thing is that if what you where doing previously was ALIVE. . then YOU DON'T NEED TO DUMP THE CUP OUT. That's because the 'delivery systems will be the same or very similiar. That's because they where both ALIVE, both REAL. not FANTASY.
Whats nice about this aproach is that instead of going for 'width' by adding more systems, you can instead train for 'depth' by simply gaining better and better 'timing' in the already established games of stand up, clinch, and ground.
This is why you can easily crosstrain between Muay Thai, western Boxing, and Savate, (same delivery system). Add Shotokan and I can start hearing the Sesame Street song "One of these things is not like the other. . .one of these things just isn't the same"
Subject: continued. . . .
From: smartmonkey
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 04:48 PM
Once again as I stated in an earlier post:
"where I think those of you that disagree with me come in is that you feel you 'need' to start with dead patterns, and progress to Alive drills. I simply, completely disagree. I think dead patterns are are a complete waste of a students time, and beyond taking a few minutes to 'show' someone a move. . .never needed. I do not buy into the theories of "hard wiring reflexes" etc, through dead pattern training."
"We take a different aproach. Those intersted can see that aproach in detail to an answer I gave earlier in the question about triangle footwork. It's a simple, fast, athletic, and very fun aproach. It's also, obviously based on the posts here, a different aproach then whats done often here. That's why we get that message out. A lot of people would like to use this aporoach, and hold interest in learning it's specifics. In fact, if given the option, I think most people would probably have more fun with this aproach. We are trying to give more and more people the option."
"Is the Art of boxing in the memorized moves of the sport, or Roy Jones JR's perfectly timed cross? Is the Art of figure skating inside the rule manuals of the judges, and the 'tradition' of dance moves handed down, or does it exist in that moment in time when the skater executes everything perfectly, and finds the 'stillpoint'?"
Mikham, having re-stated all of that perhaps you should consider asking Mark to post on here himself. I am travelling a lot, and my time is short, but I still enjoy sharing points online, and will make time to discuss them with someone here when I can. I think it would be good for everyone involved. I'd also be happy to post direct on the DB site.
I respect what Eric and Mark began greatly. It was a simple idea, and as such a BRILLIANT idea. And I think they have revolutionized the FMA within the USA. That is a HUGE accomplishment in my book!
I hope they keep it pure and simple. My only fear would be that 'devolved' into another "Park Fu" situation as I mentioned in that first interview posted on www.straightblastgym.com.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: point of clarification
From: smartmonkey
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 05:41 PM
point of clarification:
I'd also like to make a brief point.
I have zero issues with people who claim they want to "preserve and promote" a style or system. This is why I have never really had an issue with OJKD people. If OJKD people say simply "I want to preserve and promote what Bruce Lee did", I say rock on.
My issues then become two fold:
1) don't claim what you are doing has anything to do with fighting in the modern world. I say this because if that was there purpose they would obviously be doing groundfighting, firearms, wrestling, clinch work, etc. And if their stand up really was that good. .it should at least be able to hold it's own vs a ring proven Art such as Muay Thai. It cannot, or I have yet to see anyone do such.
2) Don't claim Dan Inosanto doesn't teach JKD. He always has taught JFJKD, he just calls it Jun Fan.
My issues with other "styles" are the same:
If you want to "preserve and promote" a style, or combination of styles. . .rock on!
But if you wan't to teach people to 'fight' with weapons, or without, you need to train them 'Alive', like athletes, and get them sparring as soon as possible. . .so they can develop their own 'style'.
I have heard reference to "Villabrille Kali", how many of you have done traditional Villabrille Kali? I firmly believe everyne claiming to teach the JKDC version of FMA should take at least one seminar in Villabrille Kali. If for no other reason then to get at least one good, hard, two hour session in the Art of the "Chicken step". It may be an eye opener.
Having said that I am not interested in "preserving and promoting", any particular 'style'. There are thousands of people claiming to "preserve and promote" these Arts, so I think they are in good hands.
Instead we want to teach people to fight, with and without weapons, against one, or many opponents, at all ranges of combat. We do that through the method we call Aliveness, and do it for purposes that go beyond actual "fighting".
I believe this is a powerfull vehicle for further self actualization, promotes self esteem, and is a much healthier paradigm for young people, and people of all ages to pursue. I also think it cannot be supressed. Like pandoras box, once open, it will spread.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Crafty Dog
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 06:32 PM
Woof All:
My wife has shown me how to disable the disable-cookie function that I had up and now I can post directly. Thanks to Mike for facilitating things so far.
Briefly, before daily duties intervene:
"I think Mark and I will simply disagree on this one. However, I am sure if we corresponded directly, both our viewpoints would have more in common than not."
Agreed!
"Again, my definition of Art as related to sports, movement, dance, and fighting, relates directly to performance."
Nothing wrong with this definition, nor IMHO is there with mine. For purposes of more effective communication, I was simply stating what mine was.
", , , That is what I initially found so beautiful about the DB FMA Paradigm. It allows each FMA player to 'create' their own style. The JKD of weapons."
Perhaps it is worth noting that Top Dog, Salty Dog, and I each have substantial training in the FMA as part of what allows us to create our respective personal art/styles.
"This is a very diferent definition then Mark's "the collective repository of unspoken human wisdom" That sounds something more along the lines of Jung's collective unconcious, or what my friend Chris Haeuter calls 'primal knowledge'. If it is, then I don't think you could ever even come close to aproaching it through a dead pattern, or form. (There are certainly some ways to aproach that "CU", and other doors or perception, but I think Mark and I would have to discuss those privately)But that definition is esoteric enough to be interpeted many different ways."
If I have given the impression that I advocate deadness, I have failed in my communication. I'm sure Matt and I would enjoy private discussion. And yes the definition does admit, indeed calls for, different interpretations.
"Baby with the bathwater? Again, as Sovaan pointed out, dead + alive = dead. You cannot mesh shotokan with Mauy Thai. The delivery systems are so disimiliar it simply won't work. You cannot mesh Greco with Wing Chun, for the same reason. You cannot mesh Silat with Freestyle, or Judo, same reason. I am sure MANY people would argue this point, but never the less, one is Alive and real, and one is Fantasy. At best I find this practice of JKDC people a waste of time, and at worst counter-productive."
Here we begin to approach some of the difference. In my opinion the Art was alive when created. If we are to tap into that collective repository of unspoken wisdom, we too must be alive. I could be wrong (not for the first or last time) but I perceive Matt to be throwing out the wisdom (the baby) because he cannot get beyond the current messengers (the bathwater). We AGREE that aliveness is vital. We AGREE that dead training creates problems to overcome.
If I understand his analogy about training someone based in Silat in Judo correctly, I agree in part and disagree in part. I train in both Silat (Inosanto Maphilindo with a past in Bukti Negara too) and BJJ without either creating problems for the other and with the two coming together.
I'm guessing I'm coming to the end of permissable size of a post, so END PART ONE
Woof, Crafty Dog
Subject: RE: INFO
From: smartmonkey
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 07:09 PM
Hi Mark,
Sincerely nice to see you on this site:
in regards,
"I could be wrong (not for the first or last time) but I perceive Matt to be throwing out the wisdom (the baby) because he cannot get beyond the current messengers (the bathwater)."
You are close to my position here, but to clarify:
I simply do not believe the 'wisdom' in this case, the baby. . .and the 'messanger' the bathwater, are really that related. I think people want them to be related to justify a long period spent attempting to functionalize dead patterns.
In addition, I don't ever think the 'bath water' is needed to discover the 'baby'. I fully realize that you and others have a backgound in FMA drills. But if it is true that you can grasp the wisdom of the baby, without the bathwater at all. . .then I feel that point is moot.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: Reply part two
From: Crafty Dog
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 07:20 PM
Part Two:
"I have heard reference to "Villabrille Kali", how many of you have done traditional Villabrille Kali? I firmly believe everyone claiming to teach the JKDC version of FMA should take at least one seminar in Villabrille Kali. If for no other reason then to get at least one good, hard, two hour session in the Art of the "Chicken step". It may be an eye opener."
LMAO. I know what you mean! My "chicken step" is more of a headless chicken. Yet I recently spent some one-on-one time exchanging with a noted Villabrille player. We did NOT do chicken step. But he shared with me the essence of these movements (NOT saying that I got it all!) i.e. the ALIVEness of them. Ah. I found a baby amongst the bathwater.
" , , , Instead we want to teach people to fight, with and without weapons, against one, or many opponents, at all ranges of combat. We do that through the method we call Aliveness, and do it for purposes that go beyond actual "fighting". I believe this is a powerfull vehicle for further self actualization, promotes self esteem, and is a much healthier paradigm for young people, and people of all ages to pursue. I also think it cannot be supressed. Like pandoras box, once open, it will spread."
Great. The idea of the cultural meme-- great.
"I respect what Eric and Mark began greatly. It was a simple idea, and as such a BRILLIANT idea. And I think they have revolutionized the FMA within the USA. That is a HUGE accomplishment in my book!"
Tail wags!
"I hope they keep it pure and simple. My only fear would be that 'devolved' into another "Park Fu" situation as I mentioned in that first interview posted on www.straightblastgym.com."
Not sure what Park Fu is, but I do know we continue on our merry way. The Gatherings went on hiatus for a year and a half because someone with a personal grudge against me called in the police rather than sort it out directly and I felt we needed to find a space where we could exclude people seeking to bring problems-- something we could not do with the space in the public park. We now have such a space with the RAW Gym and our second Gathering at RAW will be held on Sunday, July 28 (after our Second Annual Training Camp also held at RAW on July 25-27 see www.dogbrothers.com for details )
Again, Matt and I probably agree more than disagree. And its fun to converse with someone who thinks in terms of memes, recognizes Jungian concepts when presented and can actually converse intelligently about them. Normally I don't post on these forums, but the questions presented by this thread felt like an opportunity engage in conversation and to share some thoughts.
Woof, Crafty Dog
Subject: RE: INFO
From: smartmonkey
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 07:24 PM
Mark,
Thanks again for posting. It should be noted I greatly respect your work. As Luis would say, what the DB's did for FMA's is HUGE.
take care -Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Basketball Jones
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 07:27 PM
Hi Matt,
I have to disagree with you on the part about things not blending together. While I spent 5 years on BJJ, we never spent too much time on stand up. yeah, a little wrestling here and there, some judo and sombo, and some silat and I never could do good takedowns of any kind. Anyway, I did privates for about a year with a wrestling coach and, after moving to Cali, did a few drop ins at RAW. Well, after learning some good basics from wrestling, it greatly improved my ability to use takedowns from Sambo, Silat, and Judo. (ie--actually use the techniques I was taught) Similarly, when I started concentraing on boxing in depth with some good boxing coaches, I have been able to utilize moves from other arts as well.
For example, here's some cool applications and I'll give credit to where I learned it:
From Guru Dan: Parry Jab/Slip Cross/FOLLOW retracting Cross into close quaters and PAK SAO the cross hand and three punches. (from 1967 curriculum)
From Larry Hartsell: Slip jab INSIDE and PAK SAO rear hand/HOOK jaw then follow ups.
While the pak sao comes from WC, those drills aren't wing chun. Its Boxing with some WC thrown in. (Remember what Paul Vunak said years ago, "Want to improve any art? Train it out of a boxing mode.")
Good, practical drills. While some may not like them, I have had good experience with them.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: smartmonkey
Date: 24-Feb-02 | 07:33 PM
Yes BB, you are now begining to use a boxing and wrestling 'delivery system'.
That system works. That is my point.
You may mix any 'technique' (if you define technique by how you form your hand, or what 'tool' you use). But the method of delivery will be of a boxing or wrestling, or BJJ nature in terms of the physics of it. . .or it probably won't be effective.
If it where, I promise you that the USA Olympic Freestyle wrestling team would be busting out their Djuru training as we speak in Colorado.
ps: Ricco C has amazing take downs, if I was anywhere near there I would train with him as much as possible.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: Rico
From: Crafty Dog
Date: 25-Feb-02 | 03:22 AM
Woof:
Rico is awesome and a super cool guy as well. He taught a section at our Training Camp last year and will be teaching again at our Camp this year (different material of course) BTW I've started up at his new class at RAW recently (having trained previously with him in a small group he had going at Rigan Machado's school) and am enjoying it very much.
Woof, Crafty Dog
PS: BTW I spell 'Marc' with a 'c'.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: smartmonkey
Date: 25-Feb-02 | 04:00 AM
Sorry Marc! I'll remember that.
-Matt Thornton www.straightblastgym.com
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Rory Singer
Date: 25-Feb-02 | 08:10 AM
Marc,
Tail wags to you friend. It has been a long time. So long in fact that Adam and I were amazed to see you mention our names in your first post. It seems as though things are going well for you. How is the married life and am I correct in thinking there was a little dog on his/her way. I may be making that last bit up but just covering all my bases :). How is the akita we met that really wanted to bite me LOL. He was so cute.
All is well down here in Athens, GA. Best of luck to you at the next gathering. Good to have you on the board. Take care of yourself.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: David Erath
Date: 25-Feb-02 | 10:38 AM
I have a MA school in New Orleans and have a few things to say about sumbrada drills. I learned a ten-count sumbrada drill with disarms for the first time in 94. By 96 I had decided it was useless because when my partners attacked with force I could never get the free hand in for the check or disarm. I liked the “defang the snake” principle and the bulk of what I taught after 96 was hit the hand, etc. I figured if someone is swinging full force, there is no way I’m going to stay in there and continuously trade blows, counter for counter.
About a year ago I was stick sparring and ended up against a wall. My partner came with a hard inward swing, which I crashed my stick into to block, as I could not back up. He swung through, giving him the option to follow with a backhand, but I immediately crashed in, using the stick as a shield, putting my free hand against his, and snaking to disarm as I had in the sumbrada drill.
I had never used this move before in sparring, and realized it must have come from my earlier sumbrada practice. I asked him to try the movement again and repeated my defense with the same result. I then had him throw a hard backhand, following through, and I crashed in with the inside deflection and snake disarm. After this I told him to hit and retract and as he retracted, I was able to crash on the inside of an inside swing, as it was retracting, and the outside of the backhand, as it was retracting.
I realized I must have learned something from doing sumbrada, and started practicing it again. For a year or so now I have been doing sumbrada again, with my students, stick vs. stick, and shoe vs. stick, but I put emphasis on this being a crashing drill. It’s obvious to anyone who tries, that you can’t, or shouldn’t want to, enter from long range into a full force swing with the free hand checking. But if you practice the drill with crashing either at the beginning of a swing or after a follow through or retract, I believe there is great benefit.
I do agree with Matt that this method could be taught without a drill, drilling each swing separately at first, and then at random. However, I think doing the same pattern over and over again helps ingrain the movement, without any negative result, or dirty bathwater...as long as the point of the drill is to drill crashing and disarming. It also allows the student to have a record of each technique against each angle for easy access, the “collective repository of unspoken human wisdom” as the Dog Brothers call it.
I agree with Matt’s definition of Art, as your own individual expression. But, I also agree with the Dog Brothers’ definition of Art, as an accumulation of knowledge, painted as a drill so that it can be seen and benefited from by others who come after. I think you are referring to two different things, the collective knowledge of the past, and the individual expression of the present.
David
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Demitrius Barbito
Date: 25-Feb-02 | 11:42 AM
Since we've got Crafty Dog here...
I was sooooo influenced by the Dog Bros. In the early 90's me and a few guys formed our own stick fighting club and we fought every week at the park and video taped. (One is BreakUNose - Jerry, who posts here) I still use some of that footage in my videos. One thing that we really did not do was "drill". Individually we had "done our drills" for a time and moved on. When we brought new people into the club we did'nt teach them drills. We just handed them a stick and showed them the basics. We were taking on all comers for a while in OC. This went on for years. The "Real Contact" stick sparring changed everything for us. Blending it with the grappling was super as well.
Now... Here it is many, many years later. I have clients come into my facility who claim to be "stick fighters of 10 years". When I reach for the fencing helmets 99.99% of them say "Oh, I'm not there yet." The ones who do stick fight pull out a "kendo" helmet. You could hit that thing with a sledgehammer and laugh. They usually refuse to wear the fencing helemt. Even then they say it's only on for "incidental - not intentional - contact". They have usually never even "sparred". They move around in long range and tell you you're doing something wrong if they "dip thier head in" and you hit it. They say "stop" if you hit them in the thigh or some uncovered area. Yet... They call themselves "stick fighters" and say they "spar".
If you want to teach/train with drilling structures I say "fine". But it has to lead somewhere, sooner than later. I just cringe when I hear people calling "breaking out of the sumbrada pattern" their hardcore training. If you want to survive a real life weapons encounter you have to train certain way. There will be various roads taken when it comes to weapons... But all roads should lead to "harder contact" - "aliveness" - "realistic approaches" - "appreciation of the ability to 'end' the encounter".
Demi (I'll give the baby a shower) Barbito
Posted to the Underground forum's Q&A: JKD.
NOTE: posted 5/11/13 as of 2/26/02 to mirror my old site.
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